The Crimes of Mena:

Small Town For Smuggling



Article 1 of 21

Subject:      Unravelled Response
From:         truegrit@worldnet.att.net (Russell Welch)
Date:         1997/03/12
Message-Id:   <3326FEE2.46305143@NETNEWS.WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Newsgroups:   alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
[More Headers]

I guess this is an open letter to anybody that might
read this on the Internet.  My name is Russell Welch.
I was a criminal investigator in the Arkansas State
Police until January 16, 1996.  Almost all of that
time was spent in Mena, Arkansas.  I was the second
criminal investigator assigned to Mena.  The first
investigator was placed at Mena in  1977 primarily
to monitor drug traffic at the Mena Airport.  Barry
Seal wasn't the first show to come to the Mena Airport
and he wasn't the last.  I took over investigations
at Mena in 1981.  At that time, my supervisors
kept pressure on me to develop cases at the Mena
Airport.  By 1990, I was being ordered to stay away
from apparent drug activity at the airport.  Before
I was ordered away from drug activity, high ranking
officers in the Arkansas State Police were allowing
suspects to look at my files.  The suspects didn't
even have to ask for access to my files.  The information
was furnished to them without solicitation.  One
such person is now the assistant director of the Arkansas
State Police.  To say that there is corruption in the Arkansas
State Police would be an understatement.  While I
was working on the Barry Seal case, uniformed state
police officers came to the Mena Airport and met
with known smugglers.  I was never told why
these meetings took place. I was just an investigator.
I've never been out on a crusade to make a point
about anything.  I was good at my job and during
my career, investigated just about every type of
crime I can think of.  I would gladly compare my
case files with those of anybody else in the
country.  Indeed, my Barry Seal case file has
certainly been scrutinized more than any other,
ever, in the state of Arkansas; and, it's probably
pretty high up there with others across the entire
country. I'm reluctant to sound vain, but I've got
confidence in my ability.  I don't like braggers, so
I'll leave that alone, having said it.  A few days
ago I met Billy Bottoms.  I had become familiar
with Bottoms while investigating Barry Seal's
activity in Arkansas.  Billy was always in danger
of being indicted while I was doing that investigation;
but, I was never able to get a good handle on him.
Seal was visible and out going but Bottoms kept
a low profile.  Maybe, I'll get a chance to discuss
that later on.  When I got a chance to meet Bottoms,
I couldn't resist.  Mena, Arkansas, can be a lonely
place when you carry a stigma such as being the
investigator on the Barry Seal case.  It was an Albatross
around my neck and still is.  I've had to fight a local
mayor, politicians and certain businessmen who were
very content to entertain narcotics traffickers at the
local airport.  I'm still in Mena for two reasons: I've
got two sons in high school that deserve to finish up
with the friends that they've been raised with, and
as long as I'm here, nobody can change the history
of what's happened here.  I had no help from other
cops during this investigation.  Most of them didn't
have the kind of educational background necessary
to deal with that kind of investigation.  It's also
my opinion that none of them that could have helped
me had the balls to take it on.  I never thought about
it that way because I always worked alone, anyway.
Bill Duncan, IRS-CID, was my partner, but he handled
the money investigation, and was in Mena only on a
few occasions.  He had no reason to be here. I went
after the dope while living in a small town with the
people whom I was investigating. I was always vulnerable.
Twice, I had to have my house scanned for bugs, using
expensive bug detectors loaned by the DEA.  My wife
and I were never able to let our children out or away
from us without a great deal of apprehension.  Some
say that Barry Seal wasn't violent.  It would be stupid
of me to accept that while I was investigating a major
drug smuggling operation.  Besides that Barry didn't
live in Mena and someone damned sure tried to kill me.
I'm the first to admit that the investigation was way
out of my league.  It should have been handled by
the Feds.  At first, I though it was being handled,
in part, by the Feds. Then, I looked over my shoulder
one day and nobody was there.  I thought that the
Arkansas State Police was behind me; but, that
thought soon dissipated. And still, all I was doing
was investigating.  I never went anywhere that the
evidence didn't take me.  In the last few years, I've
seen charlatans come and go.  People that know how
to take information that doesn't belong to them
and make money with it.  When I made contact with
Billy Bottoms it was refreshing.  For the first time
in a number of years, I found somebody that I could
talk to about Barry Seal and my investigation.  Billy
was the only one left.  Eric Arthur walked into the
propeller of his airplane (Freddie Hampton told me
that sort of thing happens all the time.)  Emile Camp
flew into a mountain and Barry was gunned down.
Pete Everson was a Johnny-come-lately. I needed to
talk to Billy.  Maybe I was confronting my demon.
I don't know.  Many of you have probably formed
a negative opinion of Billy Bottoms and I don't blame
you.  He tells you that things didn't happen at Mena
and you know that they did.  I find it a little aggravating,
too.  But, to meet him in person is a pleasant surprise.
He's intelligent and attentive to people around him.
He's strong in his beliefs and takes criticism gracefully
and without flinching.  He speaks from experience and
personal knowledge.  This probably causes him problems
on the Internet, because he completely stays away from
the things that he doesn't know anything about.  When
Billy Bottoms says that Mena is a myth,  he is saying that,
as far as he knows, Mena is a myth.  When he says that
I agree with him, he is still just referring to the things
that he knows about, which is smuggling with Barry
Seal.  Barry Seal was not the hub of activity at the Mena
Airport.  Being a pilot for Barry Seal was not  a job
for just any pilot.  I've listened to stories from smuggling
pilots, talking about returning to the US, over the Gulf,
with a load of dope, flying 60 feet above the water in
total darkness, except for the dim lights of the instrument
panel, waves from the Gulf splashing on the windshield.
One pilot told me of a new co-pilot completely losing it
and breaking down into tears from fear.  Why isn't he
in jail? I've got a copy of an interview with a DEA agent
that says he got immunity. I'll be glad to share it.  Why
isn't he dead.  I don't know.  For one thing, I don't think
he was that active in the Ochoa investigation.  He didn't
take the ride on the C-123.  Seal took Emile Camp and
Pete Everson on that trip.  Billy, if you're reading this,
why didn't you go with Seal on the Fat Lady?
Billy Bottoms has asked me to respond to "The Mena
Myth Unravelled."  Since he posted it in a news group,
I'm going to post my response in the same news group,
if I can figure out how to do it. I'm typing this up with
Word and copying  it over.  I don't know what that's
going to do to the formatting.  I'll have to do it in
installments.  My response to his first paragraph is taking
up 49 pages in Word.  I may get burned out before I
finish all of the response.  I hope I'm not imposing
by posting such lengthy articles and I hope I'm not
in the wrong news group.  I'm not interested
in arguing with anybody.  I've had to fight too long
to maintain my integrity.  My family has paid, dearly.
What I have done is all that I have to offer.  I never
backed away from the truth.


Billy,
Thank you for asking me to respond to your report,
"Unravelled."  I know that you are expecting a lengthy
reply from me because our brief visit barely cracked
the surface of things we need to talk about.  I'm tired
of the "tip of the iceberg" motif, so I refuse to use
it.  I'm sure that you're creating a lot of confusion
for anybody that read Unravelled on the Internet because you
didn't mention that what you were saying refers only
to your tenure with, and knowledge of, Barry Seal.
You told me that past the middle of 1983, you
began slipping away from Seal's drug activity and didn't
know everything that he was doing.  After I told you about
watching Seal and Billy Earle, Jr., fly into Rich Mountain
Aviation, on the night of December 13, 1983, preparing
for a smuggling trip, you told me that Seal had told
you that he was flying cocaine directly into Mena, but
you didn't believe him at the time.  After I told you
what I saw, you said, "Maybe he did." That incident
was well documented.  In fact, it was the last overt
act in my investigation.  The FBI notified me that they
had picked up information from a wire tap in New Orleans
that Seal was coming into Mena with either money
or dope.  It turned out that he was bringing the plane
in to have it plumbed for auxiliary fuel tanks, which
were needed immediately for a smuggling trip.  Billy
Earle told me about the trip.  He and Seal brought
in a Navajo with a Panther conversion kit and Venezuelan
tail number, YV189CP.  The temperature was below
freezing that night.  Billy had picked up Barry Seal at a
small airport outside of Baton Rouge.  Billy commented
that it was night time and Seal flew to Mena without
using charts.  They arrived at Mena around midnight.
Billy remembered that Seal went in for his landing at
a 45 degree angle.  He told Billy E. he was trying to avoid
the mountains.  It was a short landing.  The hanger doors
at Rich Mountain Aviation opened up and they taxied
in with the engines still running.  Billy E. was ushered away
from the two work men.  Seal told Billy E. that he didn't
want him to observe the men working.  This would help
them to avoid elements of a conspiracy.  Earle later
identified a photograph of Freddie Hampton.  After the
new plumbing was put in Seal and Earle flew back
to Baton Rouge.  Billy E. dropped off Barry and then flew
on to Miami.  The plan was that  Billy's father would take
the airplane from Miami to Venezuela and then, with
orders from Seal, fly to a place in Southern Colombia,
bordering Peru, and pick up 200 kilos of cocaine.  This
particular deal fell through.  The operation was to be
staged out of Carver Ranch, in Belize, which was run
by Chester Cotter.  This is the same ranch that Dan
Lasiter flew to in 1984, with the intentions of buying.
Barry Seal met Chester Cotter through Roger Reeves.
Roger Reeves also introduced Seal to Felix Bates
and the Ochoa's.  Chester Cotter's telephone number
in Belize was 809-3388.  Billy said that the plumbing
job done at Rich Mountain Aviation was so good that
a couple of weeks later, when he brought the plane
back into the United States, Customs in Miami didn't
find it.  I talked to Earle about this at 10:30 a.m.
on October 10, 1985.  FBI Special Agent Tom Ross
and Arkansas State Police Investigator Jim Jenkins
were also on the stake out the night that Billy Earle
flew in with Seal.  They were trying to sneak up on
the hanger and look in a window when Hampton came
out to take a leak and saw them.  He thought it was
Sheriff Al Hadaway and Terry Capehart.  Later that
night Hampton went to his father's bakery, in Mena,
and was so mad, according to an employee, that he
started throwing things around and cussing Hadaway
and Capehart.  The employee stated that she was
threatened to not repeat anything she heard.  This was
a major operation by Seal of which you had no knowledge.
You also mentioned that you knew that the Carver
Ranch seemed to display a link between Seal and Dan
Lasiter that was perplexing to you.  It was standard
procedure for Seal to use the Carver Ranch but other
smugglers used it, also.  If memory serves me correctly,
the usage fee was $5,000 a pop. Unfortunately there
have been some stories started about Seal by people
who never knew anything about him but were able
to pick up enough tid-bits  to spin a yarn.  Barry
Seal was a mule for a drug cartel.  He crossed paths
with Oliver North and got burned for his troubles.
He tried to stay out of prison and lost his life. He was
never, never a wheeler-dealer in Arkansas.  This is
the myth that we agree on.  Why parts of Seal's
organization were never prosecuted in Arkansas
is a nagging question.  You stated that the cases
were weak.  That's not true.  I'll show you in a later
response that I developed a very good conspiracy
case and Seal even told Hampton and Evans to plead
guilty to the currency transactions violations.  I'll
show you part of a deposition from a deputy foreman
of the grand jury who complained that the grand
jury wanted to indict but the United States Attorney
wouldn't let them.  This, and more, leave nagging
questions.  I'm looking forward to our dialog.

(Bottoms, page 1)

This airport was first made famous by
Barry Seal, an infamous drug smuggler who was slain in
Baton Rouge, Louisiana by Medellin Drug Cartel hitmen.
This was a result of the Federal Government placing Seal on
a silver platter for them to do so, in breach of agreements
made with Seal.

(Welch, comments)
It is very true that Seal was put on the street with no concern
for his safety, by a federal judge in Louisiana; however,
the statement, "..in breach of agreements made with Seal, "
brings up an interesting set of circumstances.  On Feb. 17,
1984, Barry Seal is convicted, by jury, in Judge Norman C. Roettger's
court, in Fort Lauderdale. At that time, Barry was not working
with the cops.  It's a logical assumption that, if Barry had been
acquitted, he would not have done any work with law enforcement;
at least, not until he found out how his other Louisiana indictment
was going to turn out.  March 13, 1986, DEA Agent Robert Joura
testified, during a Jeopardy Assessment hearing, that he and DEA
Agent Ernst S. Jacobsen did not meet Seal until the end of February,
1984, after the conviction:

QUESTION.       Did you have occasion to meet an individual
by the name of Adler B. Seal in connection with your work with the
Drug Enforcement Administration?

JOURA.          Yes.

QUESTION.       And just to make sure the record won't be
confusing, we may refer to Adler B. Seal as Barry Seal?

JOURA.          That's right.

QUESTION.       You know him as Barry Seal?

JOURA.          That's correct.

QUESTION.       When did you first meet Mr. Seal?

JOURA.          Approximately, February, 1984.

QUESTION.       And what was the occasion that you had to
meet Mr. Seal?

JOURA.          I received a call from people in the Drug Enforcement
Administration headquarters, in Washington,
telling me that they had interviewed Mr. Seal and that
he wanted to cooperate with the government and that it looked like the
bulk of his cooperation would be taking place in Miami, Florida, so
they referred him to me.

QUESTION.       At that time, did you understand some of the
background or the history of Mr. Seal?

JOURA.          No, not really, not at that time.  I hadn't
heard of him before that.

QUESTION.       When did you first have contact with him,
approximately?

JOURA.          Approximately the latter part of February, '84.

QUESTION.       Where was that contact?

JOURA.          Agent Jacobsen and I met with Barry Seal in Miami.

QUESTION.       What was the purpose of that meeting?

JOURA.          To discuss with him what cooperation he thought
that he could give to the government.

QUESTION.       At that point, did you learn about Mr. Seal's
history, his past, in terms of criminal indictments?

JOURA.          Yes.

QUESTION.       Could you tell us what that was?

JOURA.          He told me that he had been tried and convicted
in the Southern District of Florida on a Quaalude
conspiracy case.  I believe he was also convicted of two counts.
He hadn't been sentenced at that time.  He had another indictment
pending
in Fort Lauderdale, I believe he was also the target of a grand jury
investigation in Louisiana.

QUESTION.       Did you subsequently learn the date of the
conviction on the Quaalude case?

JOURA.          I'm sure that I did.

QUESTION.       Was it approximately February 17th , 1984,

JOURA.          I believe that's right, yes.

*************************************************************

On April 8, 1984 Seal flew to Medillin, Columbia, with Felix
Bates, ostensibly setting up a sting.  The courts are not yet
aware that Barry may "roll over" to gain consideration for
his sentencing.  In fact, Barry has not yet appeared in Judge
Gonzales' court to face his other indictment.  That won't occur
until May, 14, 1984.  On April 22, 1984 Seal flew to Panama,
still working on the sting. Still, neither court is aware of what
Barry is doing.  On May 14, 1984, Seal enters guilty plea before
Judge Gonzales.  On May 22, 1984 Seal flew to Panama.  On
May 23, 1984, Seal returned from Panama, to Opa-locka Airfield,
where there is no Customs check. He is late for a court appearance
before Judge Roettger, on this same date.  On May 24, 1984,
Seal is sentenced by Judge Roettger for the Feb. 17, 1984 conviction.
Seal receives two consecutive 5 year sentences for conspiracy and
using
a telephone to commit a crime.  Seal is put in jail. On May 25, 1984,
Agent Jacobson and Assistant  US Attorney Kellner go before
Judge Roettger and tell him that Seal has been cooperating on a major
drug sting and if the sentence is carried out, they will have to
terminate an important drug investigation.  They put the judge in
a difficult position.  Judge Roettger is unhappy with the way
they have handled this and tells them so; however, in the interest
of curtailing cocaine traffic into this country, the judge amends
his sentence, Seal enters into the second of three plea agreements,
and is released.  Judge Roettger's plea agreement is the second
for Seal, even though it was the first court appearance.
There was plenty of time to discuss the roll-over with
the judge before sentencing had been carried out.  Although
I have my own opinions, I have never been offered an explanation
for this timing.  It's almost like Seal's release was extorted
from the judge.  No matter how good a snitch might appear,
when you get access to them because they've been arrested
and want to try to stay out of jail, you still have to deal with
the court once their arrest has been litigated.  Seal would have
done himself a lot better, if he had rolled over before going
to trial.  I assume that he was hoping to be acquitted and then
continue with cocaine smuggling.
Nobody else in Seal's organization is mentioned in the plea
agreements.
A third plea agreement would soon be made in The Middle District
Of Louisiana. It always appeared, to me, that Seal was playing
these judges against each other and it inevitably worked against
him.  I've got copies of the plea agreements and will make them
available to you when I find them.  Seal's immunity from illegal
acts committed prior to March 24, 1984, was contingent upon
his debriefing.  Billy, you know that Seal went out of his way to
irritate authorities in Louisiana, right up to the end.  You also know
that it's a different rodeo in Louisiana and those boys hated Barry
Seal.  The night that Barry was killed, Freddie Hampton called me
at home and told me about it.  He wanted me to see if I could find
out more about it.  I called some of my law enforcement contacts
in Louisiana and they were celebrating.  They said that they had just
gone to
look at the body, to make sure that the Feds weren't doing some
smoke and mirrors so they could put Barry on a witness protection
program.  A short time earlier these same men were extremely
angry when they learned that Seal was going to have to do some
time in a half-way house, rather than ten years of hard time. I
suspect that the authorities in Louisiana might have been easier
for Barry to get along with if the DEA group in Miami hadn't
been so arrogant.  I talked to officers, including DEA, all over the
country and none of them had any use for the Miami group, because
of their attitude.  Sure, they were busy in Miami; but, everybody
else had problems, too.  In late 1984 or early 1985 FBI S.A.  Tom
Ross and I went to meeting in the office of AUSA Brad Myers, in
Baton Rouge, to discuss Barry Seal.  A couple of DEA agents
from Miami showed up.  The Miami agents were not happy that
they had been sent to Baton Rouge to attend this meeting.  I only
remember what one of the agents looked like.  He was pushing
middle age and had short hair.  He wore a gold necklace, white
slacks, and a bright colored shirt with flower designs.  Somehow, we
got on the subject of inter-departmental cooperation.  The Louisiana
agents told the Miami agents that occasionally they needed
help in the form of somebody just going to the airport, in Miami,
and checking on an airplane or checking to see if a suspect arrived.
The Miami agent's response was, "Call me but don't expect me to
do anything.  I've got important cases to take care of.  You guys
make a big deal over two hundred kilos of cocaine.  Our US Attorneys
won't even go to court with amounts that small."  The response
from the Louisiana officers was, "Hell, you think you're the big boys
because you got so much dope coming in down there; but, all you're
doing is bogging down the rest of the country because you can't
get your own job done." And so it goes.  It seems that Barry got
caught up in that; but, he brought some of it on himself.  From some
of the interviews that were done at the time, it seems that Barry
was playing some of these law enforcement agencies against each
other, just like he was playing those federal judges against each
other.  I've got some more documentation to throw in here; but,
before I completely lose touch with my subject which, if I remember
correctly, is the breach of agreements that may, or may not, have
been made with Seal; let me toss in some more court transcripts:

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA
MIAMI DIVISION

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
PLAINTIFF

vs.

NORMAN SAUNDERS
STAFFORD MISSICK
AULDEN SMITH
DEFENDANTS

No. 85-165-Cr-SPELLMAN

Miami, Florida
July 11, 1985
8:30 a.m.

VOLUME III
Transcript of Trial

BEFORE THE HONORABLE JOHN J. MOORE, II
and a jury

Court Reporter:         MARIO J. CONTILLO
                        Miami, Florida

CROSS-EXAMINATION  (by Mr. Krieger)
(Billy, this starts on page 338 of the transcript)

QUESTION.       Mr. Seal, as you may notice, I put on the easel
a list of six dates. I'm going to focus a substantial part of my
examination upon the sequence of events highlighted by those dates,
and I hope they assist you in your recollection.  I will explain
the significance of these in my questions for the purpose of those
dates.
Mr. Seal, I believe that in response to some very early questions put
to you by Mr. Gregorie you told this court and jury that you
were engaged for a period of time in the smuggling into this
country of quantities of marijuana and cocaine; isn't that correct?

SEAL.           That's correct.

QUESTION.       And if my recollection serves me – and don't
hesitate to correct me if I am wrong in my recollection – you
indicated that you began your smuggling operations in the year 1976;
is that correct, sir?

SEAL.           Drug smuggling, yes sir.

QUESTION.       Prior to that you had been in other types of
smuggling?

SEAL.           No, sir.

QUESTION.       You had not been in smuggling at all?

SEAL.           Unless you're referring to the case in 1972 for
export of the explosives.

QUESTION.       Well, that kind of smuggling into another country.

SEAL.           If you say so.

QUESTION.       You tell me, sir.

SEAL.           I would assume that – I don't know whether it was
smuggling or not.

QUESTION.       Well, it wasn't going to go through Customs
in whatever country it was destined for; isn't that correct?

SEAL.           That's correct.

QUESTION.       It was going to be brought into, I believe it was the
Dominican Republic?

SEAL.           No, sir. I think Mexico is where it was going.

QUESTION.       Mexico. And, to be brought secretively into the
country without clearing Customs?

SEAL.           That's what I was told, yes, sir.

QUESTION.       And that was something you were willingly
going to do?

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       And, by the way, at or about that time, and
that was approximately the 1972?

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       That was when your relationship with TWA
was severed, wasn't it?

SEAL.           When I took leave from TWA? Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       And there came a time when you terminated your
relationship with TWA, you were no longer an employee of TWA;
right?

SEAL.           Right.

QUESTION.       And that was at a time different from the year
1976, which you testified to here on you direct; isn't that so?

SEAL.           That's so.

QUESTION.       So you were in error when you told us in
your direct examination that you left TWA in 1976; correct?

SEAL.           I don't recall telling you that.  I don't recall
saying that.

QUESTION.       Well, whatever the record says, the record says,
sir, and I'm not going to take up the Court's time in
cross-examination.
Whatever –

SEAL.           It's common knowledge I left in '72.

QUESTION.       Okay, So if you said '76, it's wrong.

SEAL.           If I did, it was an error. My mistake, yes.

QUESTION.       Okay. Now, but one thing you are sure about in
regard to dates, as I understand your testimony now, is that your
smuggling operation into this country, of drugs, began in 1976.

SEAL.           As best I can recall, yes, sir.

QUESTION.       Now, you became, as the years went by, a rather
large-scale smuggler; correct?

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.        A big one. Right?

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       And, being a big smuggler, you handled huge sums of
money; isn't that correct?

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       Millions of dollars.

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       And it would also be fair to say, would it not,
that as – up until April 26th, 1983, the first date on that easel,
your operations as a smuggler were reasonably successful; right?

SEAL.           I don't know what the date is you're referring
to.

QUESTION.       Okay. You were arrested at some time in 1983,
were you not?

SEAL.           No, sir. I surrendered to the government on an
indictment. I wasn't arrested.

QUESTION.       Oh, okay. You surrendered into United States
Government custody on charges contained in an indictment
in the year 1983.

SEAL.           Yes, sir, I believe so.

QUESTION.       And I suggest to you, sir, that there is an official
court record that bears the date April 26, 1983, as you first
appearance
in court.

SEAL.           Okay.

QUESTION.       If you recall, you were held, were you not, you
were required, in order to go free, bail in the sum of approximately
$1 million by personal recognizance bond and in other fashions.

SEAL.           That is correct. Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       Now, when you were charged – when you surrendered,
let me put it that way, when you learned of the prosecution against
you
that resulted in your surrender on April 26, 1983, you realized and
you
recognized that your success as a smuggler was in serious jeopardy;
right?

SEAL.           You could say that; yes, sir.

QUESTION.       Well, we could also say you felt yourself as
being in a lot of trouble.

SEAL.           That's true.

QUESTION.       And you find yourself, as you told us before,
being prosecuted as a result of an operation called Screamer; correct?

SEAL.           Correct.

QUESTION.       And you were charged, were you not, in two
separate indictments here in the Southern District of Florida, as a
result of that investigation; correct?

SEAL.           That's correct.

QUESTION.       One indictment charged you with conspiracies
and distributions of Quaaludes; correct?

SEAL.           I can't recall the exact termination – I don't
know exactly what the indictment was for, officially.  If you
say that's what it was for and that's the record, I'll accept that.

QUESTION.       Well, one was dealing with Quaaludes; isn't
that correct?

SEAL.           Yes, sir, I think so.

QUESTION.       And, as a matter of fact, the one that was
dealing with Quaaludes, you spent four or five days on trial
in front of Judge Roettger, didn't you?

SEAL.           Yes, sir. I believe so.

QUESTION.       And you heard a lot about Quaaludes for
four or five days, didn't you?

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       And, as a matter of fact, you stopped hearing
about the Quaaludes on February 17, 1984, the second date on
the easel, when you were convicted by a jury; right?

SEAL.           If that's the date that I was convicted. I accept
it; yes, sir.

QUESTION.       Just so that there is no confusion, I represent
to the Court that each one of the dates that I have – Each one of
the dates, Your Honor, I had documentary reports for in the
nature of official court records, with the exception of this date,
which should be 11.  November 19, not May 19 – but we
hadn't come down to that anyway.  If you have any real concern
about these I'll show you the documents, if you wish, Mr. Seal.
I'm just trying to expedite the examination.

SEAL.           I just don't recall the official dates.

QUESTION.       These are official dates.  If I represent to you
that it's an official date, with the exception of that May 19, you
can put it in the bank.  On February 17th , 1984, you were
convicted in front of Judge Roettger.  Now, there was also an
indictment pending against you during '83 into '84 that was
then before Judge Gonzalez; correct?

SEAL.           That's correct.

QUESTION.       And that indictment involved Quaaludes,
phenobarbs and Demerol; right?

SEAL.           Again I can't recall the exact chemical
compounds, but if you say that's the record, that's fine.

QUESTION.       Let me show you, to refresh your
recollection, sir, copy of indictment No. 83-6034.  And if it's
the Court's preference I'll mark it for identification, or I need
not clutter up the record?

THE COURT:      You just want to refresh his recollection with that,
and if that refreshes it, that's fine.

QUESTION.       I show you a photocopy of the indictment 83-6034.
I ask you to come up here, sir, and see whether it refreshes your
recollection that you are charged as a defendant in that indictment
and
that that indictment charges violation of the drug laws involving
phenobarb, Quaaludes and Demerol.

SEAL.           Well, I don't see the word "Demerol," but if
you say that's what it is –

QUESTION.       Well, you see, do you not, the word meperidine,
sir?

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       That's Demerol, is it not?

SEAL.           I have no idea.

QUESTION.       Now, sir, in that indictment there were, were there
not, 13 counts involving you? Counts 1 through 13, name Adler
B. Seal as the defendant. Do you want to look at it again?

        SEAL.           Whatever you say is fine with me.

        QUESTION.       Now, on February 17, 1984, the date that you
are convicted in front of Judge Roettger, you recognize yourself,
do you not, to – well, close to where the hammer is going to fall
on you.  You're convicted, sentence is going to be imposed at
some time in the future; right?

SEAL.           That's correct.

QUESTION.       And you also know, do you not, that you stand
convicted before one of the more severe sentencing judges in the
Southern District of Florida –

                MR. GREGORIE:   Objection, Your Honor.
                THE COURT:              Sustained.

QUESTION.       You believed yourself to be subject to severe
sentencing; correct?

SEAL.           I really wasn't aware whether it was going
to be severe, lenient, or what, to be honest with you.

QUESTION.       You knew that you could get 10 years.

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       All right. You had been advised, had you not –
and I withdraw the "advised."  You believed yourself, did you not,
to be likely candidate for 10 years in jail?

SEAL.           I didn't give it any thought either way.  I knew
I could get a maximum of 10 years.  I had no idea what the judge
was going to give me.

QUESTION.       Okay.  At the – on February 17th, standing convicted,
you still had pending against you the indictment before Judge
Gonzalez,
which contained within it a potential of 20, 30, 40 years of potential
punishment; correct? Fifteen-year counts, five-year counts, they add
up.

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       Now, long before February 17th, 1984, and probably
at a time close to April 26, 1983, you made an offer to the Drug
Enforcement Administration to cooperate; isn't that so?

SEAL.           Repeat the question, please.

QUESTION.       I said before February 17, 1984, and probably at or
about the time of your surrender to the indictment on April 26, 1983,
you offered, you made an offer to the Drug Enforcement Administration
to cooperate.

SEAL.           I don't believe I approached - - the date - - what
was - -

QUESTION.       Sometime … make it easy for yourself, sometime
between April 26th and February 17, sometime in that 10-month
period.

SEAL.           After I turned myself in?

QUESTION.       Yes, sir.

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       All right.  And they inquired of you as to whether
you would cooperate; is that what you're saying? Really, what I'm
getting
to, you offered or they asked? How did it come about?

SEAL.           It was a little of both.

QUESTION.       A little of both.  You recognized at or about the
time that a little bit of both was occurring that one way to get out
of the problems that you had, or minimize the problems that you had,
would be to "cooperate"; right?

SEAL.           Well, I was advised by my attorneys that…

QUESTION.       However…

SEAL.           …that I could minimize the effect of my punishment by
cooperating; yes, sir.

QUESTION.       So they had advised you that your punishment
could be quite severe in the cases that were then pending against
you.

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       And the severity of those sentences was of such
amount that felt you would rather cooperate, whatever that word
may mean, cooperate with the Drug Enforcement Administration
than serve the number of years that your attorney suggested to
you, you might serve; correct?  That's it pure and simple, isn't it,
Mr. Seal?

SEAL.           I'm not following that again.

QUESTION.       Okay.  There comes a time when there's a
discussion about a deal; right?

SEAL.           Right.

QUESTION.       And that's what it's called in the legal
parlance, lawyers, defendants, courts, a deal, a plea bargain,
okay?

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       And the one that I'm referring to is the
one which Mr. Gregorie characterized with the word "attempted,"
in your direct examination.  You attempted to cooperate.
Remember that?

SEAL.           No, sir, I don't.

QUESTION.       Well, okay.  I'm talking so that there is no
confusion between us, sir, about the first "arrangement"
between yourself and the Drug Enforcement Administration
after your surrender on or about April 26, 1983.

SEAL.           I remember that incident, yes, sir.

QUESTION.       Okay.  There was a conversation, whether it
was between yourself and the agents or agent or your lawyer
and the agent, I really don't care.  Nothing came as result of
that arrangement; isn't that true?

SEAL.           It was discussed and nothing came of it.
You're right.

QUESTION.       The Government wanted you to give them
something more than talk; isn't that correct?

SEAL.           I cannot remember the gist of the conversation.

QUESTION.       In any respect. Search your recollection.

SEAL.           Oh.  I just remember discussing two .. I had
two attorneys with me and I remember the other two people
who were present, but I don't remember the exact way the
conversation went, other than we talked about a cooperating
effect.

QUESTION.       It never got off the ground.

SEAL.           Correct.

QUESTION.       The Government turned you down.

SEAL.           Well, basically.

QUESTION.       So whatever you were offering wasn't good
enough to get you out of the problems that you had; correct?

SEAL.           No, I don't think that's the way it was.  I think
we said that we would get back with one another, to think about
it.

QUESTION.       But you didn't.

SEAL.           Not at that time, no.

QUESTION.       It wasn't sufficiently attractive for you.

SEAL.           I didn't say that.  I just said at that time we
just were going to discuss  it and give it some thought.

QUESTION.       You gave it some thought and you didn't
get back to them.

SEAL.           Not at that time, no, sir.

QUESTION.       You didn't get back to them until after
February 17th, 1984, when you were facing 10 years in front of
Judge Roettger; isn't that correct?

SEAL.           And February 17th was a conviction?

QUESTION.       Yes, sir.

SEAL.           No, sir, I didn't contact them on February 17th,
I don't think.  I may have.  You say …

QUESTION.       You misunderstand the question.  You did not get
back to them until after you had been convicted on February 17th,
1984,
and were facing 10 years before Judge Roettger.  It was sometime
after February 17th that you contacted them again; right?

SEAL.           For all practical purposes, I did make some other
attempts, but I'm not sure of the date on it.  It was around that
time.  It may have been a little before or a little after.

QUESTION.       A little before your trial or a little after your
trial?

SEAL.           A little before the trial, in another district.

QUESTION.       And that district was?

SEAL.           Middle District of Louisiana.

QUESTION.       It's your testimony that you spoke with some
representatives … U.S. Attorneys, agents, whom?

SEAL.           I tried to speak with a U. S. Attorney.  He wouldn't
talk to me.

QUESTION.       All right.  So that never even … you didn't even
get through the door on that one.

SEAL.           That's correct.

QUESTION.       Okay.  Let's put that aside completely.  At least you
had had
a face-to-face conversation with representatives of the Government
here
in the Southern District of Florida; right?

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       And that potential deal or arrangement was not
consummated.

SEAL.           You said consummated? Oh.

QUESTION.       It was not consummated until sometime in March of
'84; correct?

SEAL.           I again am not sure of the date that I …

QUESTION.       Accept it.

SEAL.           Okay.

QUESTION.       I represent to you again, I am not going to use
dates unless I have a specific document …

SEAL.           I didn't say …

QUESTION.        Or … not, it's not up there. … or a real solid,
good-faith basis for the date.

SEAL.           Okay.

QUESTION.       Now, in March of '84, you sat down and spoke with
an agent; isn't that so?

SEAL.           If … is it .. did I .. are you .. where are you
talking about,
what …

QUESTION.       Southern District of Florida.

SEAL.           Again, I'm not sure of the date of when I sat
down here in Florida.

QUESTION.       Accept it.  March of '84.

SEAL.           Okay

QUESTION.       All right?

SEAL.           Fine.

QUESTION.       That was an agent by the name of Jacobson;
correct?

SEAL.           I can't recall.  I think my first meeting was with two
agents.

QUESTION.       Name them.

SEAL.           Robert Joura and Ernst Jacobson.

QUESTION.       Okay.  And in that first meeting you worked out
the skeleton or the bare bones of the deal; isn't that correct?

SEAL.           That was the first meeting with those two agents.

QUESTION.       Yes, sir.

SEAL.           There was other meetings before that.

QUESTION.       Mr. Seal, you have me confused, I confess.
You had told us that prior to your trial there was a meeting
or meetings in which an arrangement …

SEAL.           I think I can straighten it out for you.

QUESTION.       Good. Go ahead.

SEAL.           Just prior to … just after I was convicted,
I tried again to talk to the U. S. Attorney in the Middle
District of Louisiana…

QUESTION.       All right.

SEAL.           … through a friend of mine, and he wouldn't
talk to me.  I then called the Vice-Presidential Task Force
directly in Washington, D. C.

QUESTION.       Okay.

SEAL.           Because I couldn't get anywhere with anybody
else.

QUESTION.       And arrangements were made.

SEAL.           That's correct.

QUESTION.       As a result of you phone call to the head of
the task force, you had a meeting with Agents Joura and Jacobson.

SEAL.           Well, I went to Washington first; yes, sir.

QUESTION.       They told you that they'd put two agents on it,
or some agents on it and arrangements were made; correct?

SEAL.           That's the chronology.

QUESTION.       And you went to Washington at or about
what date?

SEAL.           What date did you say that I met with Joura
and Jacobson?

QUESTION.       It was in the 20's of March.

SEAL.           It was just prior to that; a couple of weeks or so,
a week.

QUESTION.       All right.  And with whom did you meet there?

SEAL.           In Washington?

QUESTION.       Yes, sir.

SEAL.           I met with Vice-Presidential Aide Jim … I think
his name is Jim Howell, Kennedy with the DEA, Frank White
with the DEA, and a specialist from the United States Air Force.
I believe I'm correct in what I'm saying.  I could be in error about
those, but to the best of my knowledge that's correct.

QUESTION.       Anybody from the CIA there?

SEAL.           Not to my knowledge; no, sir.

QUESTION.       Not identifying himself as such.

                MR. GREGORIE:   Objection, Your Honor.
                THE COURT:              All right. Overruled.

QUESTION.       Now, you were accompanied by whom on that trip?

SEAL.           I was alone.

QUESTION.       You had conferred with you counsel before
going up there?

SEAL.           No, sir.

QUESTION.       This was something that you wanted to do by
yourself because it seemed like a good idea to you?

SEAL.           I decided to do it.

QUESTION.       And there was one meeting in Washington; correct?

SEAL.           That's correct.

QUESTION.       And that meeting lasted approximately?

SEAL.           Two hours.

QUESTION.       And at that meeting you laid out, did you not,
what kind of case you could make for the Government?

SEAL.           Well, I told them what I was doing at the time.

QUESTION.       What specific criminal acts you were doing, or
the specific criminal acts or the specific acts that you intended to
do?
When you say what you were doing, I really don't understand.

SEAL.           I told them that I was a smuggler and that I had
future smuggling trips coming up and described to them what
was my next proposed trip.

QUESTION.       And you described it to them in Washington;
right?

SEAL.           That's correct.

QUESTION.       Then you described it to Agents Jacobson and
Joura.

SEAL.           Yes.

QUESTION.       … here in Florida.

SEAL.           That's correct.

QUESTION.       Before you took any steps to continue on that
smuggling venture; correct?

SEAL.           Yes … well, I don't remember.

QUESTION.       You don't remember the dates.

SEAL.           No.

QUESTION.       Okay.  The .. so there comes a time in March,
in the 20's in March, where you have entered into some kind of
working arrangement with the Government; correct?

SEAL.           That's the date. Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       Please don't worry about the dates.

SEAL.           Okay.

QUESTION.       Don't worry about them.  Now, when you offered
.. you offered, did you not, to the Vice-Presidential Task Force,
that you could arrange for seizures of quantities of drugs; correct?

SEAL.           Would you like for me to tell you what I told
them?

QUESTION.       Absolutely.

SEAL.           I told them that … that I was … I had an upcoming
smuggling trip that I had been asked to bring in approximately 3,000
kilos of cocaine from the Jorge Ochoa smuggling group and that I
thought that was going to consummate and I would be willing
to cooperate with them for their assistance in helping me out
with my sentences in South Florida.

QUESTION.       Okay. I believe it was in your direct testimony
that you and Roger Reeves were partners; correct?

SEAL.           Partners?

QUESTION.       That's what you said.

SEAL.           Yes, sir.  We smuggled together; yes, sir.

QUESTION.       And you had been importing drugs from,
if I remember correctly, you said the Jorge Ochoa Cartel.
That's right, isn't it?

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       And this is the same Jorge Ochoa about whom
you made some mention in your direct testimony; correct?

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       Okay.  Now, you had this coming up … the help
that you expected, was it not … maybe I should use the word
"hoped for" … the help that you hoped for from the Government
with regard to your sentence, was contingent, was it not, was
dependent upon your being able to do what you told them you were
going to do; correct?

SEAL.           I don't think that they put it that way to me;
no, sir.

QUESTION.       The sense of it.

SEAL.           I don't know that if I produced the actual
kilos, whether that, you know, would be the same benefit as
… I just think it was if I cooperated.

QUESTION.       Well, Mr. Seal, let's look at it this way: You
take a trip down to South America, you come back to the
United States, and you meet with Agents Jacobson and Joura
after you come back, and you say, "Gee, I wasn't  able to
meet anybody, but I tried." That really wouldn't get you
very much help at the day of sentence, would it?

SEAL.           I don't know.  I'm not familiar with their….

QUESTION.       I'm asking you for what you thought.

SEAL.           Well, I would assume that the more you produced,
you know, the better off it would be for you.  But that's you know…

QUESTION.       For you.

SEAL.           Yes.

QUESTION.       Sure. It's logical.

SEAL.           Sure. It's logical.

QUESTION.       Just like the business transactions
which we think so much about on the tape …

                MR. GREGORIE:   Objection, Your Honor.
                THE COURT:              Overruled.

QUESTION.       Just like the transaction, if Mr. Gregorie to the word

"business," just like the transactions which are described on the
tape,
for something you get something; right?  The rule of business.
Is that right, sir?

SEAL.           I don't follow the question.  I'm sorry

QUESTION.       Okay.  Instead of trying to come around it the
hard way, Mr. Seal, all I'm trying to say to you, and
all I'm trying to determine is whether you agree that in order
for you to get the benefit of governmental help, the Government
going to bat for you in front of a judge to keep you from getting
10 years, you had to produce something.

SEAL.           You're referring to this case here?

QUESTION.       No.  I'm talking about what's going on in
February and March, April, May of 1984, sir.

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       Okay.  And the arrangements that you made
was that you were going to produce this 3,000-kilo case or some
substantial portion of it in exchange for which you would get
help on sentencing.  Pure and simple.

SEAL.           Well, that was part of it, the 3,000-kilo
trip, but there was a lot of other things involved it, too.

QUESTION.       You had a long life as a smuggler and you
had much to tell.

SEAL.           They wanted me to completely debrief.

QUESTION.       And you cooperated with them.

SEAL.           Yes, sir, I did.

QUESTION.       And you permitted yourself to be completely
debriefed; correct?

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       You told them the complete truth.

SEAL.           Whatever they asked me, I told them.

QUESTION.       Oh.  If they didn't ask you a question,
you didn't volunteer the information.

SEAL.           That's not what I said.

QUESTION.       Okay.  There were matters about
which you made no disclosure; isn't that correct?

SEAL.           It depends on at what time.  I wasn't
debriefed all in one day.

QUESTION.       Oh, I realize that, sir.  I would like to go
as far as May 23rd, 1984, the day of your sentence in
front of Judge Roettger.  Between the end of March and
May 23rd, you withheld, did you not, information from the
Government?

SEAL.           Between which dates?

QUESTION.       The 20's of March of 1984, when you
entered into the arrangement, and May 23rd, 1984.  I
repeat again, May 23rd, 1984 is when you were sentenced
in front of Judge Roettger.

SEAL.           Okay.

QUESTION.       Between the time you agreed to
cooperate and May 23rd, you withheld information.
Yes or no?

SEAL.           Well, I wasn't in any agreement with
them after I was sentenced.  I'm confused on the dates,
now.  Let's … when was the date that I talked to
them?  When was the date that I met them for the …

QUESTION.       The first time?

SEAL.           Yes.

QUESTION.       After the Vice-Presidential … after your
trip to Washington?

SEAL.           Yes.  Was what date?

QUESTION.       March … end of March, '84.  Excuse me.
With the Court's permission, may I have that date, Mr. Gregorie?

                MR. GREGORIE:   March 24, 1984, Your
Honor.

QUESTION.       March 24th, 1984.

SEAL.           That I started cooperating and I withheld
information from them?

QUESTION.       You withheld information between March 24th,
1984 and May 23rd, 1984 … that's the third date … You pleaded
guilty in front of Judge Gonzalez; isn't that correct?  And, again,
accept the date.

SEAL.           Okay.  May 14th.

QUESTION.       You, of course, recall pleading guilty in front
of Judge Gonzalez, regardless of the date. Right?

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       And at the time that you pleaded guilty in
front of Judge Gonzalez, there was a written plea bargain,
was there not?

SEAL.           Again, I'm not sure of the date of the
plea bargain.

QUESTION.       Forget the date.  Please, trust me on the date.

SEAL.           There was a …

QUESTION.       Trust me on the date.

SEAL.           If you say so.

QUESTION.       Okay.  There was a plea bargain and you
pleaded guilty; correct?  And, believe me, if I'm making a
mistake in regard to matters of public record, we're going
to hear it from Mr. Gregorie.

SEAL.           Okay.

QUESTION.       In that plea bargain you agreed to plead
to conspiracy count and a count of using the telephone
to conduct a narcotic transaction; right?

SEAL.           If that's what I pleaded to; yes, sir.

QUESTION.       Nine-year exposure.

SEAL.           Okay.

QUESTION.       To run concurrent with whatever
sentence would be imposed upon you by Judge
Roettger.

SEAL.           Okay.

QUESTION.       Right?

SEAL.           Okay.

QUESTION.       Okay.  Now, that took care of Judge Gonzalez'
case with … about all those years which we spoke, 20, 30, 40,
because of the 15-year counts and the five-year count.  So,
you did not have Judge Gonzalez' case to worry about
any more, correct?

SEAL.           (No response.)

QUESTION.       That's right, isn't it?  You only had
Judge Roettger's case to worry about.  The one in which
you had been convicted in front of a jury; right?

SEAL.           Nothing to worry about in respect to what?

QUESTION.       Time. Sentence. Years

SEAL.           Okay.

QUESTION.       Now, sir, on May 23rd, 1984, you came
late to court, didn't you?

SEAL.           What was that date, sir?

QUESTION.       The day you were sentenced, the day
Judge Roettger threw you into jail.  That's the day you
remember, don't you?

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       Okay.  That day.  You came late to
court, didn't you?

SEAL.           I don't remember.

QUESTION.       All right.  Let me try to refresh you
recollection.  On or about April 8th of 1984 you, sir,
got in an airplane with one Felix Bates and flew to
Medellin, Colombia; correct?

SEAL.           Again, I'm not … I don't remember
what date …

QUESTION.       Accept the date.  I said on or about.

SEAL.           Okay.

QUESTION.       Okay?  And your flying to Colombia
was … well, that related to that which you had spoken
to the Vice-Presidential Commission about; correct?

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       And after you came back from Colombia
… oh, sometimes after you came back from Colombia,
you told the DEA Where you'd been and what took place;
correct?

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       Now, again in April, on or about April 22nd,
you flew to Panama, again without any agents of the DEA
accompanying you; correct?

SEAL.           That's correct.

QUESTION.       And when you came back you reported to
the DEA what you say took place there; correct?

SEAL.           Correct.

QUESTION.       And on or about May 22nd, you again flew
to Panama and came back to the United States early in the
morning on May 23rd and landed at Opa-locka where there
was no Customs; correct?

SEAL.           (No response.)

QUESTION.       No recollection of that.

SEAL.           Where there was no Customs … I came in
from out of the country and didn't …

QUESTION.       That's right, and there were no Customs
agents at the airport.  The Customs agents .. you can tell
us this, sir.  I'm sure your experience, you're more than
qualified to advise us of this.

SEAL.           I don't recall …

QUESTION.       Customs agents don't work 24 hours a
day at all port of entry, do they?

SEAL.           I do not recall that.

QUESTION.       You don't recall that.

SEAL.           No.

QUESTION.       And you have no recollection of coming late
to court on May 23rd.

SEAL.           No … I remember getting there just about
right on time.  I don't remember being late.  It could have
happened….    (Billy, I have the transcript of Judge Roettger
chewing on Barry's butt for showing up late.  I can't imagine
anybody forgetting an episode of getting their butt chewed
out by a federal judge.  Dan Lasiter had the same problem.
Maybe it's a mid-life thing. RW)

QUESTION.       Okay.  You came into court and there you
are to be sentenced in front of Judge Roettger; correct?

SEAL.           (No response.)

QUESTION.       You must answer, otherwise, Mr. Contillo
doesn't get it.

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       And it's at this time, May 23rd … I'm trying
to pick on this particular moment in your life.  It's an important
moment.  You're going to be sentenced; right?

SEAL.           Right.

QUESTION.       You had been in jail before; correct?  You'd
spent some eight months in jail; right?

SEAL.           Correct.

QUESTION.       Didn't enjoy it. Am I right?

SEAL.           Right.

QUESTION.       And, like any other normal human being,
you didn't want to spend any more time in jail; right?

SEAL.           That's correct.

QUESTION.       And, as is obvious from your attempted
arrangement with the Vice-Presidential Task Force, you
were looking … if everything worked out great … not
to spend any time in jail; correct?

SEAL.           That's correct.

QUESTION.       And you also believed, did you not, that as
a result of the activities of those three particular dates that I
mentioned to you, where you made flights during April and
just before your sentence, that you had earned some points
and some credits with your cooperation and you did not
expect to go to jail on May 23rd, 1984; right?

SEAL.           We were right in the middle of the case
and I didn't know whether they were going to terminate
the case or whether they were going to keep me … I didn't
know at the time.

QUESTION.       You expected to go to jail.

SEAL.           In.  I said I didn't know.

QUESTION.       I'm asking about your hopes and
expectations.  Not what was going to occur as a fact,
what you felt when you walked into court.  That's why
I say, I'm trying to fix a period of time.  Let's suppose,
with all due respect, that Judge Moore is Judge Roettger
and you're going to be sentenced.  You walk into court
before the judge and what's going on in your mind at that
moment?  I'm suggesting to you that at that moment
you expect to hear a sentence from the judge and you
expect to walk out with your lawyer.  That's it.
Isn't that correct?

SEAL.           Well, I didn't have … I'm trying to
think if I had a lawyer present there at that time.

QUESTION.       You did, sir.  You had a couple of them
present.  You had Mr. Sale, you had Mr. Feugler.

SEAL.           Okay.  What I was thinking, sir, I just
don't remember.  I'm sure I didn't want to go to jail,
but whether I was hoping that I wouldn't, or hoping that
I would, I really don't … I'm sure I was hoping that I
wouldn't, but ….

QUESTION.       Well, you were kind of trying to balance
water on both shoulders, if you'll accept my phrase,
because if we look at May 14th, 1984, on the day that you
entered a plea in front of Judge Gonzalez, the plea bargain
contained some language about cooperation, didn't it?

SEAL.           Again, I don't recall what was … what
the date of the letter was.  Is the date of the letter dated
the same day I was sentenced  by Judge Gonzalez?

QUESTION.       We're not even up to the sentence by
Judge Gonzalez.  We're talking about the plea.

SEAL.           Okay.  When I pleaded in front of Judge
Gonzalez?

QUESTION.       Yes, sir.

SEAL.           I pleaded guilty.

QUESTION.       You pleaded guilty to two counts.  We're
already discussed that.  I want to go into it.  What I said
was that the plea bargain contained a paragraph providing
for you cooperation with the Government.  Do you recall
that?

SEAL.           Okay. Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       And do you also recall you lawyer, Mr.
Feugler, stating to Judge Gonzalez at that time that though
Paragraph 2 contains a commitment for you to cooperate,
that is not so, you are not cooperating with the
Government and you do not plan on cooperating with the
Government. Do you remember that?

SEAL.           No, sir, I don't.

QUESTION.       Do you remember Mr. Feugler saying that
that paragraph has no bearing upon you and that it is just
boilerplate?

SEAL.           No, sir, I don't.  I don't …

QUESTION.       Okay.  If I might, let me show you a
copy of the transcript of those proceedings, and I want
you to read a particular portion and you tell us whether
it reflects or refreshes you recollection.  Let me pull it
out here.  I want you to read what is here on page 5,
beginning at line 20 and going through page 6, line 6.
There is a paragraph, it refers to a statement made by Mr.
Feugler  in open court.  If you want to read anything else
in there …

SEAL.           No.

QUESTION.       … with the Court's permission, feel free
to do it.  Look at anything you want, but that is the
particular paragraph I would like to call your attention to.

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       Your recollection is now refreshed that
Mr. Feugler made that statement, to you knowledge?

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       And the statement that he made was
basically, and I paraphrase, sir, that there is no agreement
with regard to this plea bargain, that you will assist or
cooperate with the Government; right?

SEAL.           I see it in the record, yes, sir.

QUESTION.       And if you were to turn to the face
page, you would have seen that that was a proceeding
on May 14th, 1984, in front of Judge Gonzalez.  Now,
sir, Mr. Feugler had been your lawyer for some considerable
period of time, had he not?

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       And he was lawyer in whom you had
confidence and trust; correct?  That is correct, isn't it?

SEAL.           Up to a point.

QUESTION.       Now, sir, Mr. Feugler did not lie to
the court, did he?

SEAL.           No, sir, he didn't.

QUESTION.       He was telling the Court what he knew,
whether what he knew was right or wrong; correct?

SEAL.           That's correct.

QUESTION.       And what he knew was that you had
not cooperated; correct?

SEAL.           No, I had not told him whether I was
cooperating … yes or no.

QUESTION.       He only knows what he is told and
what he hears and what he reads and sees.

SEAL.           Yes.

QUESTION.       That is all I mean, sir.

SEAL.           Right.

QUESTION.       Now, you had not told him; correct?

SEAL.           That I was working with the DEA?

QUESTION.       Correct.

SEAL.           I had not told him that, sir.

QUESTION.       Now, sir, the government in that
proceeding, of course, did not correct Mr. Feugler
to advise Judge Gonzalez that Mr. Feugler is wrong,
that you are cooperating; right?  Nobody said that
at that time; correct?

SEAL.           That's right.

QUESTION.       Now, sir, as of the date …

SEAL.           Can I say something?

QUESTION.       Sure.

SEAL.           The prosecutor that was there,
Mr. LeClair …

QUESTION.       Sure.

SEAL.           … he knew I was cooperating.

QUESTION.       And he just remained mute?

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       Now, sir, as far as corroboration for
your cooperation at that point is concerned, no agent
had gone with you to Colombia or Panama; correct?

SEAL.           That's correct.

QUESTION.       And the Government's information
concerning what you had done in Colombia and/or
Panama came from what you told them; correct?

SEAL.           That's correct.  Well, I don't know
that that's all that they corroborated it with.  It could
have been … they do have operatives and agents in the
areas that I went to.

QUESTION.       But you don't know?

SEAL.           Well, they did mention to me that they
knew my whereabouts.

QUESTION.       They knew that you were in the country?

SEAL.           They didn't tell me their details of how
they knew and what they knew, but they knew … they said
they knew where I was every minute of the day.

QUESTION.       Now, sir, it would have been a little
embarrassing if you kind of disappeared, wouldn't it?

                MR. GREGORIE:   Objection, Your Honor.
                THE COURT:              Sustained.

QUESTION.       May 23rd, 1984, Mr. Seal, you appeared before
Judge Roettger and Judge Roettger says to you, "ten years," five
years on each count to run consecutively; correct?  You remember
that, don't you?

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       And you also remember him saying to you,
"Consider yourself lucky, Mr. Seal, because if this were a cocaine
case, you would be doing at least twenty-five years"; right?

SEAL.           I don't remember the exact terminology,
but I remember something to that effect.

QUESTION.       Well, the twenty-five years kind of sticks
in your mind, doesn't it.

SEAL.           I don't remember the years.

QUESTION.       Well, would you like to see a copy of that,
too?

SEAL.           If that's what it is, I take your word for it.

QUESTION.       Okay.  And then he says, "To jail, you are remanded";
right?

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       And it is at that point, isn't it, at that point, that
you then enter into a real arrangement with the Government for
you cooperation?

SEAL.           Not that I can recall.

QUESTION.       Well, you get to a telephone sooner or later,
don't you?  To let people know that you are in jail?

SEAL.           I don't recall.  I may have.

QUESTION.       Well, you weren't going to spend the rest of
the ten years sitting around in jail, were you?  You wanted to
get out of jail?

SEAL.           I wanted to get out, but I didn't know whether I
was going to get out or not.

QUESTION.       Well, you took some steps to get out of jail;
correct?

SEAL.           I didn't, no, sir.

QUESTION.       Your lawyers did?  The lawyers that didn't
know you were cooperating did?

SEAL.           No, sir.

QUESTION.       Other lawyers did?

SEAL.           I was told it was the DEA that arranged for it.

QUESTION.       The DEA knew you were in jail?

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       And they then took steps to get you out of jail?

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       Got you out of jail within a day and a half; right?

SEAL.           Approximately, yes, sir.

Billy, obviously, Barry Seal is getting worked over by a very trial
lawyer.
I had to use an example like this because the prosecuting attorneys
did
not have the same interest in bringing out this kind of information.
There
are examples from other trials where Barry is interrogated on the
stand
by other lawyers, concerning the same information; but, I'll leave it
at this
point because I'm just trying to show the atmosphere of confusion and
contempt that was developing around Barry Seal, at that time.  In my
own experience working with snitches that were headed for court,
if the issues were not very clear, and the informant did not
understand
exactly what could and could not be promised by law enforcement
officers
and prosecutors, bad things were likely to happen for the snitch.  If
the
informant had already been convicted at state level (in Arkansas),
he/she was going
to jail and no amount of cooperation could change that.  I had a very
good
informant one time, who reminded me a lot of Barry Seal, on a much
smaller
level.  After being convicted on a weapons charge and sentenced to
five or
ten years, he wanted to turn some cases and stay out of the Arkansas
prison system.  He went to the FBI first and worked a case, then came
to me (with an FBI agent).  We didn't make him any promises but told
him that we'd try get the judge to help him out.  At one point I was
actually
made to believe that the judge would act favorably.  I was told this
by
my alcoholic supervisor who had no concept of the law, but knew the
judge.  I ended up knocking off a small piece of what is sometimes
referred to as the Dixie Mafia; but, the informant got a gun screwed
into
his ear, almost killed, and ended up in prison anyway.  The point I'm
trying
to make is that Barry, in my opinion, was building his hopes on very
unstable ground.  There was no way for authorities in Florida to
control
what might happen in Louisiana.  And, like I said earlier, there's
more
than just miles between Louisiana and Florida.  Let me show you some
references, from the same cross-examination, concerning the
investigation
in Louisiana.

QUESTION.       Sir, you became aware, did you not, during the
summer and fall of 1984… I am coming up to that 11-19-84 date ..
that between the summer and fall of 1984, that the Middle District
of Louisiana was probably going to indict you in a very serious case;
correct?

SEAL.           State the question again.

QUESTION.       In the summer and fall of 1984 … and as I said
I am coming up to November 19th, 1984 …

SEAL.           Now that you said the dates, I do not remember
what date it was I recognized that the investigation was going
on in Louisiana.

QUESTION.       I didn't ask you that.  I asked you if during
the period of time that I made reference to, you were aware
of the investigation?

SEAL.           That's what I just said, I don't know if that
was the period of time I was aware … I was aware that an
investigation was going on, but I do not remember when I
first recognized it.

QUESTION.       I didn't ask you first.  I am talking about
a period of time in the fall and summer of 1984 … that is just
before you entered into your deal in Louisiana …

SEAL.           Possibly …

QUESTION.       Well, it's more than possibly.  You
provided a television special concerning your problems
in Louisiana.

SEAL.           If that's during the date, yes, sir.  That's
when it was.

QUESTION.       Sir, we are in July of 1985.  I am asking you
about events some ten months ago.

SEAL.           Okay.

QUESTION.       That's not so far back, now, is it?

SEAL.           I am just trying to get it all in perspective,
trying to be accurate for you, Mr. Krieger.

QUESTION.       Thank You.  You remember, do you not,
… you remember do you not, a film, television special, that
was played at least in your home area called Uncle Sam
Wants You?

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       And you recall, do you not, that you played
a starring role in that; correct?

SEAL.           You could say that, yes, sir.

QUESTION.       And you recall, do you not, taking a television
reporter named John Camp through your large C-123 airplane,
do you not?

SEAL.           I remember taking Mr. Camp through an airplane,
yes, sir.

QUESTION.       And you remember talking with him?

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       And you remember, do you not, seeing the film
when it was played on television?

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       And you recall, do you not, announcing
to the world at large, whoever wanted to watch the film,
that you were not a drug smuggler; correct?

SEAL.           At that time, yes, sir, I was not a drug
smuggler.

QUESTION.       And that you had not been a drug smuggler;
correct.

SEAL.           That's not the terminology I used.

QUESTION.       But that was the sense of what you were
trying to transmit to the public at large; correct?

SEAL.           Basically, yes, sir.

QUESTION.       And that you showed him through the
airplane and pointed to cameras which had been installed to
take pictures of certain activities that occurred on the
plane; correct?

SEAL.           That's correct.

QUESTION.       And you hinted at, did you not, CIA
involvement in a trip that you had made with that airplane;
correct?

SEAL.           I don't believe I hinted, no, sir.

QUESTION.       Said it out flat? You were telling the
truth then weren't you?

SEAL.           I thought it to be the truth, yes, sir.

QUESTION.       Now, sir, what I am trying to get at,
at that time the purpose of that film, of that … it was
a one-hour show; right?

SEAL.           Somewhere in that neighborhood,
yes, sir.

QUESTION.       … was to show to the world what
you considered to be over-reaching of the United
State Attorney for the Middle District of Louisiana;
correct?

SEAL.           That was Mr. Camp's idea.

QUESTION.       Well, you felt that you were being
persecuted by the Government in Louisiana; right?

SEAL.           No, sir.  I felt like they sere using
unfair tactics to investigate me.

QUESTION.       In the investigation, somewhere at
least at the point where there was an investigation being
conducted of you; right?

SEAL.           That's correct.

QUESTION.       And the investigation being conducted
of you, be the tactics fair and unfair, involved your drug
smuggling activities?

SEAL.           I really am not sure what they were
investigating because it was held behind closed secret
doors behind the grand jury, so that …

QUESTION.       That is normal, is it not?

SEAL.           I don't know.  I don't know what they
were investigating me for.

--- Now, Billy, you know better than anybody that Seal
is blowing a lot of smoke, here.  Seal was caught in
Florida with somebody else's dope; but, he was doing
all of his smuggling in Louisiana and Arkansas.  Louisiana
and Arkansas (me) had legitimate investigations.  Florida
had a legitimate sting operation with Seal; but, in the
process, they were interfering with a previously established
investigation in Louisiana.  When Florida officials stumbled
on to Seal, leading up to indictments, they didn't know
who he was.  They were only able to identify him through
officials in Louisiana.  When Barry realized he was in
trouble in Florida, he went to Louisiana authorities and
asked them to work with him and keep him out of jail
in Florida.  Louisiana refused.  They were investigating
him. They wanted him to go to jail. Seal ended up working
out of the Miami DEA office and nobody contacted
Louisiana or Arkansas, where Seal was allowed to travel
freely, without DEA supervision.  I know you will say
that Barry never took dope into Arkansas; but, later,
I will show you evidence that he did; and, you, yourself,
told me that Barry told you that he took cocaine into
Arkansas, during the later part of '83 and earlier part
of '84.  You told me that you didn't believe  him.  After
we talked at my house, you kind of changed your
attitude and conceded that he may have.  Now, back
to the court room.

QUESTION.       Well, you had concerns about your
drug smuggling activities being investigated in the
Middle District of Louisiana, didn't you?

SEAL.           Yes, sir, I did.

QUESTION.       And you also were aware, were you not,
that an investigation into your activities in the Middle
District of Louisiana could lead the Government to charge
you with being involved in what is called a continuing
criminal enterprise; correct?  You have heard that, haven't
you?

SEAL.           State the question once more.

QUESTION.       You were concerned that the investigation
in the Middle District of Louisiana could lead the Government
to charge you with participating in a continuing criminal
enterprise?

SEAL.           No, sir, I was not aware of any particular
charge that were looking at, and I wasn't worried about
any particular one.  I was worried about any one that they
could charge me with.

QUESTION.       You had heard of the charge, had you not,
continuing criminal enterprise?

SEAL.           I have … I heard various and sundry things
from all of the attorneys that I talked to about it>

QUESTION.       You also heard about it from your partner,
Roger Reeves, didn't you?

SEAL.           About the …

QUESTION.       Continuing criminal enterprise.

SEAL.           The investigation in Louisiana?

QUESTION.       No, sir.  I am talking about a charge,
a specific type of charge …

SEAL.           Do I know about a continuing criminal
enterprise charge?

QUESTION.       That's the charge.

SEAL.           Yes, I have heard of it.

QUESTION.       Okay.  And you also understand, do you
not, that if you are convicted of a continuing criminal
enterprise, the sentence can be as severe as life without
parole; correct?

SEAL.           I think I've heard that.  I don't know
for certain that that is what it is.

QUESTION.       Accept it, sir.

SEAL.           Okay.

QUESTION.       And one of the concerns that you
had in reaching your ultimate arrangements with the
Government were that there not be a prosecution of
you under the statute which provides for a punishment
such as life without parole?

SEAL.           I was hoping to get away any
type of sentencing, yes, sir.

QUESTION.       Well, any type of sentencing, be it even
six months and certainly that which would be a year?

SEAL.           Why, sure.

QUESTION.       Okay.  And you recognized that
prosecution under that … under a continuing
criminal enterprise was a potentially real thing for
you to worry about?  You had been in the drug
business a long time, and you had people working for
you and there were many activities; correct?

SEAL.           That's correct.

QUESTION.       Now, sir, you learned, did you not,
by November 19th, 1984, that the younger Earle had gone
before the grand jury and testified in the Middle
District of Louisiana.

SEAL.           Did I know that he had gone
before it?

QUESTION.       Yes, sir.  I am suggesting to you that
you did know by November 19th, 1984.

SEAL.           I don't know that I knew for sure, but
I think I suspected it.

QUESTION.       And you suspected, also, that he had
told the grand jury and the United States Attorney
for the Middle District that you had obtained from
him a false and perjurious deposition.  You knew it,
you didn't know it?

SEAL.           That I knew that the grand jury knew it?

QUESTION.       Yes, sir, that he had so testified in
front of the grand jury.

SEAL.           No, I wouldn't have any way of
knowing what Mr. Earle testified to before the grand
jury.

QUESTION.       For instance, maybe your lawyers
told you.

SEAL.           My lawyers?

QUESTION.       Yes, sir.

SEAL.           Not that I recall.

QUESTION.       Okay.  You have not been told that
amongst your other problems you were going to be
prosecuted, then, I assume, for obstruction of justice,
subination of perjury.

SEAL.           (No response)

QUESTION.       No?

SEAL.           Not that I recall.

QUESTION.       A kind of manipulation of the Earls
and also another person Herb Graves?

SEAL.           Not that I can recall.

QUESTION.       None of that ever happened?

SEAL.           None of what ever happened?

QUESTION.       Your persuading them to give false
testimony, false affidavits, false statements to the
Government?

SEAL.           Not that I can recall, no, sir.

QUESTION.       Well, you say "not that I can recall,"
sir, and this is really my last question in this.  When you
say "not that I can recall," you are saying you just don't
remember doing it?

SEAL.           When … When….  What date are
you talking about that I asked to give the Government …

QUESTION.       Well, you tell us whatever … Give the
Government?

SEAL.           Whatever you said.

QUESTION.       In September of 1983, Herb Graves
was, was he not, to your knowledge, interviewed at
length by an FBI agent?  Do you recall that?

SEAL.           I don't recall the date.  I think I …

QUESTION.       Forget the date.  You are asking for
a specific.  I am giving you is specific.

SEAL.           He was interviewed on ….

QUESTION.       On or about September of 1983 by
an FBI agent and he have a lengthy statement concerning
smuggling cocaine into this country from South America.

SEAL.           Okay.

QUESTION.       You are aware of this?

SEAL.           Okay.

QUESTION.       And you are also aware, are you not,
that in October of 1984, Mr. Graves went before the
grand jury and said that the agent must have been hearing
things, I never said anything like that.  Barry Seal is
just a great guy.  He's my friend.  He taught me how
to fly.

SEAL.           I don't know what Mr. Graves said.
I haven't read his … his grand jury testimony.

QUESTION.       You had nothing to do with his
testimony?

SEAL.           I didn't ask him to lie, if that's
what you mean.

QUESTION.       I am not asking you that, sir.  You
had nothing to do with his testimony in front of the
grand jury; is that what you are saying?

SEAL.           I couldn't.  I wasn't in there with
him.

QUESTION.       Now, sir, at the beginning of the
second week in November, this special about which
I made reference, Uncle Sam Wants You, where we
have your interview and your protestations that the
United States Attorney is conducting an investigation
unfairly and improperly against you takes place.

SEAL.           Right.

QUESTION.       And then on November 19th, 1984,
in front of the same, or with the same United States
Attorney, you enter into a deal, do you not?

SEAL.           That was … Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       And the deal that you enter into …

SEAL.           The date of the plea … the date
of the agreement was what?

QUESTION.       November 19th, 1984, the fifth date.

SEAL.           All right.

QUESTION.       And the deal that you enter into at
that time comes about as a result of conferences
between the United States Attorney's Office in
Southern District of Florida and the United States
Attorney's Office in the Middle District of Louisiana,
as well as some intervention from Washington;
isn't that so?

SEAL.           I have no idea.

QUESTION.       Well, you just didn't go in
and sign a piece of paper, now, did you?  You
didn't do that?

SEAL.           In Louisiana?

QUESTION.       In Louisiana, sir.

SEAL.           No, I didn't go in and just sign a
piece of paper.

QUESTION.       And you certainly didn't plead
guilty to charges in Louisiana just because it happened
to be a Monday or a Wednesday or a Friday.  These
are serious events which you consider and you seek advice
about and you take advice on; isn't that so?

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       And you sought advice; correct?

SEAL.           On what matters?

QUESTION.       On pleading.

SEAL.           I'm not sure of the exact events that led to
that, but I don't think that my lawyers went to the
Government and begged for a plea agreement.

QUESTION.       You didn't?

SEAL.           I didn't either.

QUESTION.       Somebody just gave it to you?

SEAL.           The Middle District of Louisiana
sought it.

QUESTION.       Sought a plea agreement from you
to get themselves out of an embarrassing situation?

SEAL.           I don't know why.

QUESTION.       You are not going to suggest that
they were embarrassed by prosecuting Barry Seal,
are you?

SEAL.           I don't know what their motives
were for striking the agreement with me.  I really
don't.  If they had a case, why didn't they bring it
to court. I have no reason why they didn't ….

QUESTION.       If they didn't have a case, why
did you plead guilty?  Isn't that the same type of
question, sir?

                MR. GREGORIE:   Objection, You Honor.

QUESTION.       You pleaded guilty …   I will withdraw
it, Your Honor.  I don't know if it's really a question, Judge.
You did plead guilty, didn't you?

SEAL.           I pled guilty.

QUESTION.       You pled guilty to cocaine conspiracy;
correct?

SEAL.           Yes.

QUESTION.       And a cocaine distribution; correct?

SEAL.           That's correct.

QUESTION.       And the amount of cocaine that
you admitted in open court handling yourself was
42 kilos; correct?

SEAL.           42 kilos?

QUESTION.       42 kilos.

SEAL.           I don't remember the amount.

QUESTION.       The amounts don't matter to you.
Substantial number of kilos.

SEAL.           Okay.

QUESTION.       Now, sir, you pleading guilty to
such charges was not, was it, an apology by the
United States Attorney for having investigated
you, was it?

        MR. GREGORIE:   Objection, Your honor.
        THE COURT:              Sustained.

QUESTION.       You didn't view the United States
Attorney charging you with such an offense as an apology
to you, did you?

        MR. GREGORIE:   Objection, Your honor.
        THE COURT:              Overruled.

SEAL.           State the question again, now.

QUESTION.       You did not view the United States
Attorney charging you with such an offense as an apology
to you, did you?

SEAL.           No.  There's a lot more behind it than
we are getting into, Mr. Krieger.

QUESTION.       Well, one of the things that we can
talk about in regard to that plea agreement, and if
you recall you looked at the plea agreement on your
direct examination, and as a matter of fact, it the
very, very first exhibit introduced into evidence in
this case, Government's Exhibit 1-A.  And on
November 19th, addressed to an unnamed judge,
I guess because nobody knew who the judge would
be at the time,  the Government told you that they
expect to bring an indictment against you charging
you with one count of conspiracy to distribute cocaine
and another count of causing false … of causing
financial institutions not to file the proper currency
transaction reports; correct?

SEAL.           Correct.

QUESTION.       Now, the first count to which they
were referring involves an importation of
approximately 320 kilos of cocaine; correct?
I can bring out the time …

SEAL.           I didn't have anything to do with any
importation in that indictment at all.

QUESTION.       You wound up with 42 kilos?

SEAL.           I don't remember the amount,
but I had nothing to do with the importation nor
did I even know it was coming.

QUESTION.       You wound up with the cocaine?

SEAL.           Some of it, yes, sir.

QUESTION.       Okay.  As far as the currency transaction
reports are concerned, it's the business of making sure
that you don't deposit $10,000 in a particular bank at
one time.

SEAL.           You know, Mr. Krieger, I really don't
know what you're getting at.

QUESTION.       All I am doing is asking questions
about your recollections of something that happened
to you.

SEAL.           What are you trying to get at about
the Baton Rouge deal is a lot that you are leaving out.
I can explain the whole situation.  What are you driving
at?  Do you want me to … to … to give you a final
answer about something, I'll be glad to.

        THE COURT:      Mr. Seal …
        SEAL:           Yes, sir.
        THE COURT:      … you let him worry about
                        what he is trying to get at.
                        You just answer his questions.
                        All right?
        SEAL:           Yes, sir.
        MR. KRIEGER:    Thank you, Your Honor.

QUESTION.       Mr. Seal, I just want to make sure at this
point that you have an understanding of the fact that on
November 19th, 1984, you entered into an agreement to
plead guilty to a cocaine conspiracy which involved a
substantial number of kilos and a variety of currency
transaction report violations.  That is all I am asking you.

SEAL.           Correct.

QUESTION.       Okay. And in the agreement which, by the
way, is three pages long, there is a provision for your
signature which appears there; right?

SEAL.           Correct.

QUESTION.       And also signature of the United State
Attorney and the chief of the New Orleans Strike Force;
correct?

SEAL.           If you say so, yes, sir.

QUESTION.       And also you own lawyer, Mr. Sclafani;
correct?

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       Now, Mr. Sclafani was lawyer whom you
had been conferring since at least the time that you got
thrown into jail on May 23rd, 1984, by Judge Roettger;
correct?

SEAL.           May 18th, 1984?

QUESTION.       No. I said May 23rd, 1984.

SEAL.           Okay.

QUESTION.       That's correct, is it not?

SEAL.           Approximately that time.

QUESTION.       And Mr. Sclafani was handling
your relationships with and your negotiations with
the United States Government; am I correct?

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       For his office? Right?

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       All right.  Now, Government's Exhibit
1-A provided that you agreed to submit to debriefing; right?

SEAL.           Right.

QUESTION.       That you must be truthful and candid?

SEAL.           Correct.

QUESTION.       And that the Government reserves the right
to verify the truthfulness of some of the statements that
you are making; correct?

SEAL.           Correct.

QUESTION.       And that you will not go undercover or
initiate cases unless you and all other appropriate parties
agree; correct?

SEAL.           That's what it says, yes, sir.

QUESTION.       And it further provides that anything
you say will not be used against you in any prosecution;
correct?

SEAL.           Correct.

QUESTION.       Unless it's for perjury?

SEAL.           Correct.

QUESTION.       And that furthermore, anything that
you say … well, it's even more than that.  The Government
… and I'll read from it … also agrees that the defendant
will not be charged with any other violations other than
the ones we are talking about in this letter … of Title 15,
Title 18, and Title 21, United States Code, in any judicial
district … that is the entire United States … which
occurred before the date of this letter except for crimes
of violence, if any exists; correct?

SEAL.           Correct.

QUESTION.       So when you signed this letter, you
knew, did you not, that you had a pass to everything
that you had done except crimes of violence up to and
including November 19th, 1984?

SEAL.           Had a what?

QUESTION.       I said a pass.  All I meant was that you
would not be prosecuted.

SEAL.           Yes, sir.

QUESTION.       That is correct, isn't it?

SEAL.           Yes, sir.


********************************************
********************************************

This kind of lays the ground work for an
understanding of what was going on at
the time.  The subject needs explored in greater
detail for its own merits; but, I was just trying
to respond to your first paragraph.  What Barry
Seal thought he was promised and what Louisiana
folks thought he was promised were two different
things. Barry never was completely debriefed, as
the plea agreement required.  Baton Rouge DEA
Agents, Long and Bremer, were not allowed to
debrief him, even though they represented the DEA
in the Louisiana investigation.  Sheriff Al Hadaway,
from Mena, was not allowed to debrief Seal. Hadaway
received an invitation to debrief Seal in Baton Rouge.
He flew down there but ended up sitting outside the
debriefing room, and was never allowed in.  He was
not given an explanation. Assistant United States
Attorney Brad Myers told me, in Baton Rouge, that
Seal had told that he would not have to be debriefed
concerning any of his family.  When Seal was asked
about Rich Mountain Aviation, he said, "That's
family." This kind of attitude worked against him
and certainly had an effect on the decision to put
Seal in a half-way house.  And you're absolutely
right, putting Seal in the half-way house was a
death sentence.  Seal made the Miami DEA look
good; but, he was a pain in the butt down in
Louisiana and they made him pay for it.  Arkansas
is, yet, a different story.  You say Mena was just
a place where Seal parked his airplanes, but that's
not true.  We'll get into that as I expand upon
my response to your "Unravelled."

(I'll send my response for paragraph two as soon
as I finish)



Back To The Mena Page.
Back To The Den: Politics.
Back To The Top.
Mail to:

drupal statistics