COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
WASHINGTON, D.C.
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:
In the matter of: :
:
WHITE HOUSE TRAVEL : DEPOSITION OF BRUCE LINDSEY
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:
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Monday, July 29, 1996
Washington, D.C.
The deposition in the above matter was held in Room 2203, Rayburn
House Office Building, commencing at 10:00 a.m.
Appearances:
Staff Present for the Government Reform and Oversight Committee:
Barbara Comstock, Special Counsel; Kristi Remington, Investigator; and
Donald Goldberg, Minority, Assistant to Counsel.
Ms. Comstock. We are on the record this morning in the deposition of
Bruce Lindsey, which will be administered under oath. I am Barbara
Comstock, a Majority Investigative Counsel, and with me this morning
is Kristi Remington, Assistant Counsel of the Staff, and Don Goldberg,
who is Minority Professional Staff.
Before you are sworn in, I would like to provide you with some
background information concerning this investigation and your
appearance here.
As you know, pursuant to its authority under Rules 10 and 11 of the
House of Representatives, the Government Reform and Oversight
Committee is investigating the White House Travel Office and related
matters, which refer to all events leading up to the May 19, 1993,
firings of the White House Travel Office employees and includes all
information provided about the White House Travel Office and any
employees of the White House Travel Office at any time from January 1,
1993 to the present.
Our investigation also encompasses the activities of Harry Thomason,
Darnell Martens and Penny Sample, as well as all allegations of
wrongdoing concerning the Travel Office employees.
The committee investigation is reviewing all actions taken by the FBI
and the Department of Justice both prior to and after the Travel
Office firings and all actions taken by the FBI and the White House.
This would also relate to the actions regarding the acquisition of FBI
background files for Billy Dale and hundreds of other former Reagan
and Bush officials.
The investigation includes, but is not limited to, the investigation
and prosecution of U.S. versus Billy Ray Dale and all investigations
and subsequent reviews of the Travel Office firings by any agency
including, but not limited to the White House Management Review, the
FBI I.C. Smith internal review, the FBI OPR review, the Justice
Department OPR review, the IRS internal review, the Treasury Inspector
General review, the GAO review and the proposed U.S. House of
Representatives inquiry considered and voted on by the House Judiciary
Committee in July 1993.
We are reviewing all actions relating to or describing the criminal
investigations into the White House Travel Office matter, including
any subsequent action or activities of any kind as a result of the
above-mentioned events.
Do you understand that your answers are to include all information
which you have involving these subjects?
Mr. Lindsey. I am not sure I agree that that is the scope of this
committee's jurisdiction in this matter. I will -- if I have specific
objections as you go through or think that it is something beyond the
scope, I will voice it at that time if that is okay.
Ms. Comstock. Okay. We can agree to disagree on the scope, but I hope
we can answer the questions.
The committee has been granted specific authorization to conduct this
deposition pursuant to House Resolution 369, which was passed by the
House of Representatives on March 7, 1996. Pursuant to committee Rule
19 both Majority Counsel and Minority Counsel will be afforded an
equal opportunity to pose questions to each witness. We will proceed
with equal rounds of questioning if Minority Counsel is interested in
questioning.
Mr. Goldberg. Why don't you keep going because I have no questions at
this point.
Ms. Comstock. You are not here by subpoena today; is that correct?
Mr. Lindsey. That is correct.
Ms. Comstock. You understand that this deposition is going to be under
oath. If you don't understand a question, please tell me and I will
try to rephrase the question. I understand you are here today without
benefit of counsel. If you raise any objections, I understand you are
an attorney, so at the time where you may want to raise objections, we
can stop and confer with Minority Counsel and, if necessary, raise it
with the Chairman, who would then consult with the Ranking Minority
Member on those issues.
You will be given a 5-day time frame in which you and your attorney,
if you would like to have an attorney review it, the deposition, once
it has been transcribed, and to correct any technical problems that
you perceive occurred in the transcription and to clarify any matters.
Usually, we have had these available in the next day or two. So by
later this week, you will be able to review it.
I ask that the witness be sworn at this time.
Mr. Lindsey. If I could, would you have any objection if I entered
into the record the June 14th letter I wrote to Chairman Clinger with
a copy to Congresswoman Collins?
Ms. Comstock. Okay. I will go ahead and put in the Chairman's response
-- actually, I have the Chairman's response and your letter of June
14th.
Mr. Lindsey. Why don't we enter it.
Ms. Comstock. Let's wait until you are sworn and I will make that
Exhibit 1.
THEREUPON,
BRUCE R. LINDSEY,
a witness, was called for examination by Counsel, and after having
been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
Ms. Comstock. For the record we will make the June 21, 1996, letter to
Mr. Lindsey from the Chairman Exhibit 1 and attached to this is Mr.
Lindsey's letter of June 14, 1996, to the Chairman.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. 1
was marked for identification.]
Mr. Goldberg. Do you have a copy of the Chairman's June 21st -- was
that CCed?
Ms. Comstock. It was.
Mr. Goldberg. Then I apologize. Can I look at it?
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Mr. Lindsey, if you could give us a background of your work history
from college forward?
A I graduated -- I finished college in 1970. I went to work for
Senator J. William Fulbright as a legislative assistant. I held that
until February probably of 1972 at which point I went to work for
Congressman David Pryor, who at the time was running for the United
States Senate. He was unsuccessful in that bid.
I joined his House staff and was on his House staff from probably June
of 1972 until he left the Congress in December or January of 1973. In
September of 1972 I entered law school and graduated Florida law
school in December of 1974.
In January or February of 1973 I returned to Senator J. William
Fulbright's staff and served on his staff until he left the Senate in
January of 1975, December '74/January '75.
At that point, David Pryor had been elected Governor of the State of
Arkansas and I became legal counsel to the Governor. I served in that
role until June of '76, at which point I joined the law firm of
Wright, Lindsey and Jennings. I was an associate in that firm until
November of 1978, at which point David Pryor was then elected to the
Senate, and I joined his staff as legislative director.
I was legislative director to Senator Pryor until November of '81 when
I returned to the Wright, Lindsey and Jennings law firm, first as an
associate, later as a partner where I worked until January 20, 1993,
when I joined the White House staff originally as Assistant to the
President, Senior Advisor and Director of Presidential Personnel.
I served as Director of Presidential Personnel until November of 1993.
I then served as Assistant to the President and Senior Advisor until
some time in July or August of '74, at which point I became assistant
--
Q Ninety-four?
A Ninety-four; excuse me. At which point I became Assistant to the
President and Deputy White House Counsel, a position I continue to
hold.
Q You are currently Deputy White House Counsel?
A Yes.
Q What is Kathleen Wallman's position?
A We have two deputies.
Q You did work on the Clinton-Gore campaign in '92, in the 1991-1992
time frame?
A Yes. I was campaign director and basically ran the airplane.
Q Can you describe what that running the airplane entailed?
A You have basically two staffs on a campaign. You have the campaign
headquarters staff and then you have the staff that travels with the
candidate at all times. Basically, there is a press secretary, a trip
director, advance people, issue people, political people, constituent
people, and I was in charge of that operation.
Q Did you regularly travel, then, with the President?
A Yes. I traveled full-time with the President. As part of my duties
now I also travel full-time with the President when he travels outside
of the District of Columbia.
Q Is that part of your duties as Deputy White House Counsel?
A Partially. There are some 25th amendment issues that I am involved
with. That is a role that I had before becoming deputy counsel.
Q In your job as campaign director did you come to know Harry
Thomason?
A Yes. I actually knew Harry before the campaign; but, yes.
Q When did you first meet Harry Thomason?
A I don't know. He is from Arkansas and has been a friend of the
President and First Lady for, I don't know how long. But some time in
the late 1980s, maybe early 1990s I met him.
Q Were you aware of Harry Thomason providing assistance to the
campaign in any fashion?
A We used an airplane that he owned in the first couple of months of
the campaign and then once the campaign sort of got larger and we
needed a larger airplane, we began to rent an airplane.
Q Do you know how that was done?
A I do now. I did not know that the company that we used to sort of
broker the airplane that he had an interest in. I know that now.
Q When you said you used Harry Thomason's airplane, you did know at
that time that you were using his airplane?
A Sure.
Q Do you know who arranged that?
A No. I think he made it available to us. We reimbursed him under the
FEC rules. There are provisions in the law that allow you to use
private corporate airplanes as long as they are reimbursed in advance.
So I don't know who made the arrangements.
Q Is it your understanding he was reimbursed in advance?
A Oh, absolutely. We set up a special account so that at all times we
could transfer money to him prior to a trip being made.
Q When did you first learn about TRM being involved in the campaign?
A Oh, I guess some time after the Travel Office matter arose -- I mean
after the terminations that they -- we used a company, I thought,
called Air Advantage to rent our airplanes after that. Again, I
thought we dealt directly with Air Advantage. I didn't know that we
worked through a broker, I guess, for that arrangement. But I think it
was some time after all the Travel Office matter arose that I learned
that they had performed sort of a brokerage relationship with us
during the campaign.
Q Do you know how you learned that?
A No.
Q Or who told you?
A No. I could easily have read it in the press.
Q In your position as campaign director, who did you work with on
advance matters?
A Mostly I worked with the trip director.
Q And who would that be?
A We had different ones. Bruce Garamindy was the trip director for a
while. Wendy Smith then became the trip director. I guess those are
the only two we probably had during the campaign.
Q Did you come to know Craig Livingstone during the campaign?
A I met Craig once when we did an event in the District of Columbia
and he did an advance for the event.
Q Do you recall what Craig Livingstone did?
A He was just an advance person.
Q Did he assist in driving you around?
A I don't know if he drove us. If it was before we had Secret Service
-- at some point we got Secret Service protection after New Hampshire.
I don't remember whether I met him before or after. If it was before,
he could have had an advance person then drive us, but for the most
part, during the most of the campaign, at least after New Hampshire,
we were driven by a Secret Service agent.
Q Mr. Livingstone testified in the Senate that he recalls driving the
President around on occasions when he came to Washington. Do you
recall that?
A That he actually drove the President or as part of the Presidential
motorcade?
Q Assisting you or the President?
A The one time I remember we went to visit Rev. Jackson at his home,
and I believe Craig helped arrange that. Whether he drove us there or
not I don't know the answer to that.
Q Do you know who hired Craig Livingstone?
A For the campaign, no. It wasn't a member -- we used a lot of people
as advance people. My understanding was I think he worked for a
councilwoman in the district, so he was not an employee of the
campaign.
Q Do you know how the campaign found out about him to use his
services?
A No. I don't know directly. Advance people tend to go from campaign
to campaign so someone who had maybe worked with him in a previous
campaign might have recommended him. I don't know.
Q Would these trip directors, would they be the ones who hired Craig?
A They don't hire him. We have an advance director in Little Rock.
Q Who was that?
A Gee, I don't remember. We had three or four or five. I can't recall
any names. But the advance director is responsible for providing
advance people at any site. Then the trip director works with the
advance people as we get closer to an event to make sure that we know
what we are supposed to do when we get there, so the trip director
will usually, for example, the night before an event call the lead
advance and walk through the schedule with that person so that there
will be a clear understanding the next day when we get there as to
where we are going to go, who we are going to see. The trip director
is responsible for communicating that to me on the candidates.
Q Do you know anything about counter events or any activities in the
campaign --
A Not about the structure. I know we had Chicken George out there.
Other than seeing him on TV, I didn't have anything to do with setting
it up.
Q You have no knowledge of who was heading up deploying Chicken
George?
A No.
Q You are aware that Craig Livingstone in his resume --
A Senior advisor to the counterevent -- I read that.
Q Do you have any knowledge of what --
A No. This was the first time I knew he had any involvement at all in
that project at all.
Ms. Comstock. I will make Craig Livingstone's resume exhibit 2, CGE
46225 or 229.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. 2
was marked for identification.]
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Directing your attention to it where he writes, "senior consultant
to counterevents in Little Rock," did you know if Craig Livingstone
was in Little Rock at any time?
A No. I don't know of any time he was ever in Little Rock.
Q Any -- he states there that he managed a volunteer staff of 20. Do
you know who was the staff of 20 that was doing counter events
operations?
A No.
Q Do you know anything about who was in charge of the deploying of the
Pinocchio and Chicken George media events?
A Iris Burnette had something to do with it, but I don't know exactly
what her role was.
Q And was she a campaign employee?
A I don't think so. I don't know if she had a position -- again, I
don't know.
Q What is your knowledge of -- is it Miss Burnette?
A Mrs., I am not sure whether that is her husband's name. Most of this
is after the fact, people talking about Chicken George and telling
stories about where Chicken George was. President Bush actually got
into a debate with Chicken George, which they thought was nice and
clever. I have no direct knowledge about who ran it or how it was run.
I just heard people talking about it.
Q During the transition time frame, did you work on the transition or
the inaugural?
A I worked on the transition, not the inaugural.
Q What was your role in the transition?
A Good question. I don't know if I had a formal role. I basically sat
in on all meetings that the President elect held with respect to the
inaugural, with respect to the transition.
Q Did those meetings involve discussing personnel at the White House?
A More personnel, Cabinet level personnel than White House personnel.
Q When were you given your position as Director of Presidential
Personnel?
A The morning of the announcement in Little Rock.
Q Would that be some time in December?
A Late December or early January. I don't remember when we did it --
we did the last Cabinet right before Christmas. I don't know whether
we did the White House. We may have done the White House after
Christmas.
Q And what was your position during the transition? You said you were
sitting in on meetings discussing Cabinet members?
A Mostly the President-elect, the Vice President-elect, Warren
Christopher, myself, Roy Neal for the Vice President, at various times
maybe Mack McLarty met on almost a daily basis and went through the
Cabinet positions and discussed candidates, potential candidates and
tried to make decisions on who to offer various Cabinet secretaries
to.
Q Was Hillary Clinton involved in those discussions?
A For the most part, no. She may have sat in on a meeting, but for the
most part on a daily basis, no.
Q To your knowledge, do you know who hired the people in the Counsel's
Office?
A I assume Bernie Nussbaum. Presidential Personnel had nothing to do
with White House hiring. I believe most assistants to the President
hired their own staff so that Counsel's Office would have been hired
by the counsel to the President who, at that time, was Bernie
Nussbaum.
Q Do you know who hired Mr. Nussbaum?
A Yes. The President did.
Q Who hired you?
A I assume the President did.
Q Did the President ask you to take your position?
A I think actually Mack McLarty did. He had already been named Chief
of Staff.
Q And he asked you to take on the position of Presidential Personnel
Director?
A Yes. Originally my position was Assistant to the President and
Senior Advisor. When it came down to the end and we had no one to do
Presidential Personnel, I got volunteered.
Q Who reported to you in that position, Director of Presidential
Personnel?
A I had two deputies plus a staff of originally 50 that dwindled down
to 10 or 15 by the time we ended. My deputies were Jan Piercy and John
Emerson.
Q And in that position did you continue to have your role in traveling
with the President also?
A Yes. We did less traveling early on, but, yes.
Q Do you know if the First Lady was involved with hiring anybody or
recommending anybody in the Counsel's Office for positions?
A Well, I know that she probably had input into hiring Vince Foster
and Bill Kennedy. Beyond that, I don't know of anyone else.
Q Do you know who hired Craig Livingstone?
A No, I don't. I think probably Vince Foster did, but I don't know
that as a fact.
Q Why do you think Vince Foster did?
A Because Vince, I think, basically was responsible for the background
review process, and just because of the way I know the White House
staff Counsel's Office operates, I would assume that he would have
been the person who would have had the ultimate responsibility for
hiring the person in that office.
Q Do you know a Miss Christie Varney?
A Yes.
Q Have you ever discussed Craig Livingstone with Miss Varney?
A No.
Q Have you discussed recently anything regarding this matter with Miss
Varney, the Travel Office or Filegate matters?
A No. I called her when her name first appeared and ragged her about
it.
Q What did she say?
A I don't know. She was apparently out of the country when it first
broke. I think she had a death in her family. When I talked to her she
was in Massachusetts or somewhere attending a funeral. We had a very
short conversation. I just told her I had been reading about her.
Q Do you know if she had any involvement with hiring Craig Livingstone
or recommending him to anybody?
A I don't have any idea.
Q Do you know Cheryl Mills?
A Yes.
Q Do you know if Miss Mills had anything to do with interviewing or
recommending Craig Livingstone?
A I believe Miss Mills at some point spoke with Mr. Livingstone. I
don't believe she had anything to do with hiring him.
Q What is the basis of your knowledge of that matter?
A Talking to Cheryl.
Q What did she tell you?
A I believe she was asked after Craig was hired right before Bill
Kennedy came in to sort of explain to him about what the
responsibilities were. I think she indicated to him that she would not
be responsible for overseeing that, that they were bringing a new
person in, but had a short conversation with him about it.
Q Do you know about any of the conversations she had with Mr.
Livingstone about his position?
A No.
Q Were you aware of Mr. Livingston wanting a position in the White
House Military Office?
A Yes.
Q Did he talk to you about that?
A Yes. We did an event at the Library of Congress during the inaugural
and he, I think, was doing an advance on the event, and I was standing
outside and he told me that he wanted to be head of the White House
Military Office.
Q What did you tell him?
A I don't think at the time I even knew what the White House Military
Office was. I asked whether or not it had to be a service person. He
indicated it did not. I don't know if I said anything else.
Q Do you know any of the discussions he had with anyone else at the
White House about that?
A I have read press reports of discussions with George and others, but
I don't have any direct knowledge of it.
Q Do you know if Mr. Livingstone talked to Harry Thomason about the
Military Office?
A No.
Q Did Mr. Thomason ever speak with you on behalf of Craig Livingstone?
A Not that I am aware of. I don't remember. Again, my office would not
have hired the head of the White House Military Office.
Q Do you know why he was talking to you about this?
A I had a sense that he was talking to anybody who would listen to him
about it.
Q Do you know of others that he talked to?
A No. I don't have any sense that I was any different. I think I was
just someone standing outside of an event and he expressed his
interest in it.
Q When did you first learn that he was heading up the security office?
A I don't know. I think it was -- it would have been after he was
there for a while. We had an incident at the White House where someone
had to be removed from the complex, or was removed -- I am not sure
they had to be, but they were removed from the complex, and the person
complained to me and to others about having been removed and I think
Craig's name came up. I think Craig was the one that asked him to
leave the complex.
Q Do you recall what the situation was?
A No. I don't. It was something that -- I don't remember -- there was
some sort of public event and I think this person had been asked to
help on the event by someone and they showed up to sort of be a
volunteer that morning for the event, and I don't remember the reason
why, but for some reason they were not allowed on.
When they asked why they were not allowed on, they were told Craig
Livingstone had given instructions that they could not come on, so
they complained.
Q Were you aware of any problems in Craig Livingstone's background.
A No.
Q Suitability for his position?
A No. None other than what I have read in the papers.
Q Did there come a time when Craig Livingstone asked you to assist
Anthony Marceca in getting a position in the administration?
A No.
Q Do you know about Mr. Marceca talking to anybody in the White House
personnel, Presidential Personnel Office?
A No.
Q In a deposition in Texas, Mr. Marceca discusses having met with a
man in the Office of Personnel and the Presidential Personnel who was
assisting him in getting a job in the administration. Do you --
A No. I mean we had 50 people who did various jobs. I have no idea.
Did he give a name?
Q No.
A I have no idea.
Q In your office did you -- could you describe briefly what the
Presidential Personnel Office does?
A Presidential Personnel primarily staffs the agencies. We staff the
assistant -- well, the Assistant Secretaries, Deputy Secretaries, SES
positions, Senior Executive Service positions, schedule C political
positions in the agencies and we do boards and commissions.
Q So would you be assisting someone getting a position, trying to get
a position, deputy assistant-something at a department somewhere?
A Right, or executive assistant to a deputy assistant. We did
everything from Schedule C's, which were sort of the lowest level
political positions at the department, all the way up to the assistant
and maybe Deputy Secretary level. Again, the President made decisions
about who would be the Secretary of the various departments. We would
then work with the Secretaries and their staff to help staff the rest
of the agency.
Q Would your office arrange then an interview on some occasions with
another agency?
A Sure. People who came to us who were interested in positions, we
would talk to them about what they might be interested in. If there
were openings, we might try to arrange an interview for them with
someone at the agency. Because we usually relied upon recommendations,
ultimately, from the agencies.
We had some input into that process, but ultimately once we hired an
Assistant Secretary, for example, and he was trying to staff his or
her area, we would work with her or him to do that. So obviously we
wouldn't impose people on agencies, but we would try to make them
available, make recommendations.
A lot of people came to us, a lot of them went to the agency. A lot of
people really didn't know what kind of positions were available or
what they were interested in, so they would come talk to us generally,
and then we would look to see if there were appropriate positions for
them in the government.
Q Do you have any knowledge of anyone assisting Mr. Marceca to get
interviews at the Interior Department in 1993-94?
A No. Again, we would have a liaison within our office for every
department in the government. If you expressed an interest in a
particular department, you might speak with the person for that
department as to who might be available there.
Q Do you know who the liaison to the Interior Department was in 1993?
A At one time it was Bob Hattoy. At other times it could be others,
you know.
Q He was there in 1993. Would he be the individual --
A He was there partially in 1993. At some point he left White House
personnel and went to the Department of Interior.
Q In '93 or '94?
A I don't remember. At some point he left our office and went to that
office. And I don't know exactly when it was. I think at some point
while he was in our office, the Department of the Interior was one of
his agencies.
Q Did there come a time in 1993 where Harry Thomason approached you
about doing something about the civilian air fleet?
A Probably. I met with Darnell Martens. I assume I did it because
Harry asked me to. I don't remember the conversation with Harry,
though.
Q Do you recall approximately when that was?
A April 1993.
Q Could you describe that contact with Harry Thomason?
A Again, I don't remember the contact with Harry Thomason. But -- I
assume someone -- I did not know who Darnell Martens was, so I don't
think I would have met with him without someone having asked me if I
would be willing to meet with him. It could have been as simple as
Darnell Martens calling and saying that Harry Thomason had suggested
he call me, so that I would not have actually talked to anyone else.
Somebody would have to tell me who Darnell Martens was or suggested
that I visit with him.
Ms. Comstock. This is CGE 12296, which is a February 17th memo
attached to a February 11, 1993, memo to Harry Thomason from Darnell
Martens. We don't have it on this copy but -- this is CGE 2296 through
2298. Page 12298 has been redacted. This is the page that apparently
had the President's handwriting where it says, "these guys are sharp."
Do you know if you ever saw this memo in February of 1993?
A I don't believe so, no.
Q Do you know when you first learned of this?
A I believe Darnell Martens sent me a copy of this memo either before
or after I met with him.
Q Did you ever talk to Mr. McLarty about this project by Mr. Martens?
A I don't believe so.
Q Or Mark Gearan?
A I don't think so.
Q Or David Watkins?
A No.
Q Or do you recall talking to them later about this?
A No.
Q Do you know if you ever talked with the President about --
A I did not talk to the President about it.
Q Ever?
A I don't think so.
Ms. Comstock. I am making that Exhibit 3.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. 3
was marked for identification.]
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q This is CGE 2227, which is an April 6, 1993 memo to Bruce Lindsey
from Darnell Martens regarding review of nonmilitary Federal aircraft
fleet. Again, the date is April 6, 1993. He mentions that attached to
the memo is a memo to Harry Thomason which was presented to and
discussed with the President in mid-February.
I believe that is the February 11th memo we previously discussed and
was Exhibit 3. It is a follow-up memo to Harry's meeting with the
President and a scope of work summary indicating a one-year time frame
for the completion of the audit.
Do you recall having a discussion about these matters with Mr.
Martens?
A Yes.
Q Could you describe those discussions?
A I think it occurred maybe the next day after this, April the
seventh, he came in. He had been to ICAP, which stood for Interagency
Committee on Aviation Policy or something, which I had never heard of
before and was telling me about how, you know, we needed to have a
more coordinated use of governmental aircraft; one, it would save
money; and two, he thought it would revitalize the private aircraft
industry in America.
Q Did you have an understanding if he had any ties to any companies
involved with small aircraft?
A No, I didn't have any sense of that.
Q You had said that you thought Harry Thomason had probably talked to
you about meeting with Mr. Martens?
A Again, I can't tell you whether Harry talked to me or whether or not
Darnell Martens used Harry's name. I didn't know Mr. Martens. I don't
think I would have met with Mr. Martens if he had just called our
office and said I am Darnell Martens and I would like to see Bruce
Lindsey. I assume that there was some way that got him the
appointment, but I can't tell you what that was.
Q Was Harry Thomason contacting you regularly in the spring of 1993?
A Regularly, I don't think I would use. He was around the White House
some. He had suggestions on various people for different boards,
commissions, mostly -- a lot of them had to do with the arts. He was
pushing a candidate for the head of the Arts Endowment.
Q Harry Thomason had called you on March 12, 1993. Do you know in the
March time frame what he was contacting you about?
A No. It was probably -- it would most likely have to do with a board
or commission appointment. But I don't remember the specific
conversation.
Q Did there come a time in the spring of 1993 that you were aware that
Harry Thomason was going to be providing some assistance at the White
House?
A Yes.
Q When did you learn about that?
A My guess is it was around Easter. I would think it was probably
after Easter. We had had an Easter egg event, the White House Easter
egg roll that had received some criticism for being sort of
disjointed, and I understood at some point that Harry was going to try
to help us coordinate White House events like that.
Q Do you know who asked him to do that?
A I do not.
Q Can you place it in time, whether it was before or after he had
asked for an appointment with Mr. Martens --
A When was Easter? I believe that the Easter egg roll was the impetus
for his getting involved, so that is why I think it occurred after
Easter. So I don't know what the relationship is to the first part of
April.
Q In your work at the White House, was handling aviation matters part
of your portfolio also, having some connection with them?
A Mostly international aviation issues, yes.
Q And what do you handle in that regard?
A There are many decisions involving routes between the United States
and foreign countries, and there is quite a bit of competition among
American Airlines and American cities for those routes. And it
involves -- we have bilateral agreements with every country that set
forth what our aviation policies are, how many routes their airlines
can fly into the United States, how many ours can fly into their
country, how many gate slots we get. So that over time I have gotten
involved in discussions concerning the amendments to those various
treaties and agreements.
Q Do you know a man named Mike Berman?
A Sure.
Q Are you familiar with his work as a lobbyist for United Airlines?
A Yes. I don't know if he is a lobbyist as you define lobbyist, but,
yes.
Q A representative?
A Yes.
Q Did Mr. Berman lobby you on occasion in 1993 regarding --
A He has lobbied me on occasion. On behalf of United -- I don't know
whether it was in 1993. United has become much more interested in, for
example, the Japanese agreement, which has come up in the last couple
of years, than earlier agreements which were mostly with Great
Britain, Germany. I can't place my discussions with Mike in terms of
those discussions.
Q Were you aware of Mike Berman providing assistance to the White
House in the spring of 1993?
A I think we have always used Mike, because he was in the Carter
administration, as someone who sort of knew, having gone through 4
years, what goes on, and as a source of information and advice just on
an informal sort of basis.
Q Were you aware of him being a special government employee at the
Justice Department in the spring of 1993?
A No.
Q Do you know of any efforts to determine his status at the White
House in the spring of 1993?
A No.
Q Whether or not he should be a special government employee?
A No.
Q Are you aware of efforts to determine whether Harry Thomason in his
work at the White House in the spring of 1993 was a Special Government
Employee?
A I know there was an investigation.
Q Did you have any knowledge in 1993 --
A No.
Q Were you aware of Mack McLarty asking Harry Thomason to assist at
that time at the White House?
A I don't know who asked Harry to assist.
Q Do you know if the President was aware that Harry was helping out on
this image project in reaction to the Easter egg roll?
A I have no personal knowledge as to whether he knew or not. My guess
is he would know, but I don't have any basis for that other than a
guess.
Q Did the President ever talk to you about Harry Thomason was going to
be helping out on image matters at the White House?
A No.
Q Do you recall in the spring of 1993 seeing Harry Thomason at the
White House frequently?
A I wouldn't say I saw him frequently. I saw him at the White House.
Q Were you provided with a copy of his image project or a memo or
anything like that?
A No.
Q So other than your knowledge of, knowing that he was there to help
because of whatever happened with the Easter egg hunt, you have no
knowledge of what he was doing in the area of the image project?
A No.
Q Did there come a time --
Ms. Comstock. Before we move on, I wanted to make this memo of April
6, 1993, that we previously discussed Exhibit 4.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. 4
was marked for identification.]
The Witness. That is the first page of the memo. Apparently, it had
several attachments.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q This is just one page, but it does mention other memos attached to
it, which we have so many different versions. The follow-up that comes
right after it in order of the number, I don't believe that is the
attachment.
A Back on Mike Berman, I don't know whether he actually talked to me
directly about United. He has asked me to meet with United officials,
but I am trying to remember a conversation where he actually ever
spoke to me about United's interest in international flights. I can't
recall any. I think mostly it was his asking if I would be willing to
meet with people from United.
Q This is CGE 17811, which is a 4/12/93 memo to Bruce Lindsey from
Darnell Martens. "Mr. Martens discussed that based on our April 7th
meeting at your office, I am recommending that the Office of the
President initiate an operational and financial audit of all
nonmilitary Federal aircraft."
Do you recall having that meeting with Mr. Martens in early April?
A Yes. I described that earlier when he talked to me about he thought
we were not utilizing our aircraft appropriately and it was costing us
too much money..
Q Directing your attention to where it says, "the Office of the
President needs to, A, issue an Executive Order empowering ICAP to
perform the audit," do you recall discussing anything having to do
with issuance of an Executive Order with Mr. Martens?
A Yes. In our meeting he kept telling me that ICAP wanted to do this
review, and I kept saying what do we need to do? I mean, if ICAP wants
to do it, and if they are the Interagency Committee on Aviation
Policy, what do you need from us?
He told me that he needed, he thought, some sort of directive or
Executive Order authorizing him to do that. I suggested to him that he
go back and figure out what was needed and let me know what he thought
the appropriate response or our role would be if it was to be done.
Q And then, "B, he discusses entering into a consulting agreement with
TRM, Incorporated, to act as a liaison between ICAP and the White
House to develop the audit methodology with ICAP and develop the final
recommendations to the President based on the obtained information."
Do you recall discussing with him this consulting agreement with TRM?
A No. Not at our meeting. If you go back and look at the second memo,
I think it may be the second memo that was attached to the April 6th
memo, there may be something in there about TRM having some role. I
don't have a sense that I --
Q I just want to have you have a set that is not as discombobulated as
the set that we have from the White House. We have gone through and
organized it in a different way that I think it would be easier --
A I think the second memo had some reference to their having some sort
of consulting arrangement. I don't have a sense that I knew that at
the time I met with them. The way he talked about it it sounded to me
like something that ICAP would do and be responsible for. I think that
this memo was the first time I sort of saw that there was a formal
paid role for TRM.
Q At that time, what was your understanding of what TRM was?
A I don't think I had an understanding. I think he told me what TRM --
I think he told me it was an aviation consulting firm in our meeting,
but what that meant or what that was, I had no idea.
Q In the next paragraph on April 12, 1993, memo, CGE 17811, "In
discussing this with Harry Thomason after our meeting, he noted the
same synergistic opportunities were discussed."
Do you have any knowledge as to why he was discussing this with Harry
Thomason?
A No.
Q Were you not aware that Harry Thomason was the "T" in TRM?
A I don't think so. Again, I don't ever think I focused on who the "T"
or the "R" or the "M" was or what those three initials stood for,
whether they were names or what at the time. Even the first memo, I
think, makes reference to Harry.
Q A memo to Harry Thomason, which was presented to and discussed with
the President?
A Yes. I knew Harry had something to do with Darnell, but I don't know
if I knew that the "T" in TRM was Thomason.
Ms. Comstock. I will make this April 12th memo Exhibit 5.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. 5
was marked for identification.]
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q This is an April 26, 1993, memo. The top says TRM, Incorporated,
Harry Thomason and Associates. It is addressed to Deb -- is that your
secretary?
A Was, yes, assistant.
Q What is her name?
A Deb Coyle, C-O-Y-L-E. She was actually the secretary to the
President, but if you know the President, he doesn't need a secretary.
He doesn't write. Things come to him written. So she basically served
as my assistant.
Q At that time was your office right outside of the President's?
A At that time my office was right down the hall from the President's.
Q And where was Miss Coyle's office?
A Right outside my office.
Q The cover sheet here, CGE 2230 through 2232 --
Ms. Comstock. I will make this Exhibit 6.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. 6
was marked for identification.]
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q The cover sheet to Deb Coyle in your office from Darnell Martens has
the following remarks, "Harry will arrive Thursday evening, info per
attached. Thanks." Attached is another memo from Darnell Martens. The
top of the memo indicates "TRM, Incorporated, Harry Thomason &
Associates."
Do you recognize the handwriting on the top of that second page?
A No, but I -- it is probably Deb's.
Q It looks like it says this is a --
A "This is what Harry Thomason is calling about."
Q Okay. And this, "Has Mr. Lindsey had an opportunity to follow up on
our meeting of April 7 and our fax memo of April 12?" And, "Harry
Thomason will be at the White House on Friday or Saturday. Would Mr.
Lindsey want to schedule a follow-up meeting at that time." Do you
recall if you had a meeting with Mr. Thomason in that time frame?
A I didn't have a meeting. I met him in a hallway.
Q At this time did you have an understanding that Harry Thomason was
involved with this company that was seeking government contracts?
A No. I knew -- I knew that Harry owned an airplane company, some sort
of company out in California. I think I probably knew that Darnell had
something to do with Harry's company. I don't think I knew that Harry
had something to do with TRM. Okay? I mean, Harry, the place where we
rented the airplane or we used the airplane maybe was called Thomason
Aviation out there in Santa Monica, I believe, so I knew that he had
an interest in an airline operation, and I think I knew that Darnell
had something to do with that.
Q Exhibit 5 says, "discussed out of Cincinnati" and a Los Angeles
phone and fax number on the top of it.
Returning to Exhibit 6, CGE 12230 through 12232, that has the
handwriting on the top, is this usually -- did we identify that as
Miss Coyle's handwriting?
A It is a good guess that it is hers. If you look at my telephone logs
for the same period, you will see a call from Harry and then a note
the next day or maybe later that same afternoon with some sort of
reference to trying to set up an appointment or a meeting with Harry.
Q Was this the kind of memo that Miss Coyle would write on, sort of a
memo for you, this is what Harry is calling about, she would give it
to you --
A She would probably attach it to the phone log so that when I saw
Harry's phone message I would also see this.
Q So this memo would have been attached to your phone log?
A Probably. I would have to see the reference in the phone log. I
think it references the memo.
Q You think you would receive this memo -- why don't I get the phone
logs.
You have an April 28 phone log regarding Harry Thomason's phone call
setting up a meeting for Friday or Saturday. Is that the --
A Later that same day?
RPTS MCCALLEY
DCMN GALLACHER
[11:05 a.m.]
Q I have one for the next day, actually.
A Next day.
Q Which reads, "I don't know if you ever touched base with Harry
Thomason. He'll be at the Jefferson Hotel."
A Yeah. So I don't believe I ever spoke to Harry after this. I don't
think I spoke to Harry after this. I think I was scheduled to meet
with him at 8:45 on Friday. We also -- we left on a trip that Friday.
He was running late and so I passed him in the hall as I was headed
toward Marine One. So the only conversation I had was a short hallway
conversation with him.
Q Do you recall that conversation?
A I don't recall the conversation. I've seen a memo later where I must
have said I didn't think I had gotten the memo that Darnell Martens
said he was going to send me because there is a later memo that says
Bruce indicated to Harry that he had never gotten the memo. At some
point I think I told him that I thought this ought to go over to the
Vice President to the Reinventing Government group. I don't know if I
did that in that conversation or not.
Q And do you know if that did go over to the Reinventing Government
group?
A I have a vague memory I talked to Elaine Kamarck about it once, but
I don't believe I ever sent her anything.
Q I will make these April 28th and 29th phone calls from Harry
Thomason Exhibit 7.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. 7
was marked for identification.]
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q On page CGE 2232 of Exhibit 6, which is --
A That's this one?
Q The end of the page there talks about, "Please advise our next step
(other than setting up a meeting with Roger Johnson)."
Do you recall ever discussing with Mr. Martens or Mr. Thomason meeting
with Roger Johnson about this?
A No. But if -- again, I could have talked to him about it in that
April 6th meeting. I think -- isn't ICAP part of GSA?
Q Yes.
A So I, you know, but I -- if I spoke to him about it at all, I would
have spoken to him about it in that April 6 meeting.
Q Do you know if you ever spoke with Roger Johnson about this?
A No. Basically after I got -- at some point when I actually saw that
it was a consulting agreement and it cost about half a million
dollars, I decided that it ought to go -- that the Vice President's
group ought to look at it, basically didn't do much more from that
point on.
Q CGE 2233, I'll go ahead and make Exhibit 8, which is an April 29,
1993, memo to Bruce Lindsey from Darnell Martens, and attached is a
summary of the proposed audit and report with some additional detail
and then attached is the -- what you have described as the half a
million dollar project.
A Right.
Q In this again he mentioned, I would appreciate the opportunity to
get together with you and Roger Johnson to determine if he is in
agreement.
Does that refresh your recollection as to whether or not you ever
talked to Roger Johnson about that?
A I don't believe I ever talked -- no, I think once I saw -- got this
and saw the magnitude of it, I decided that it ought to be something
that the performance review group, Elaine Kamarck and the Vice
President should take a look at.
Q I'll make that document Exhibit 8.
A By the way, there are -- I'm sorry, you got it. I thought there was
a page missing.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. 8
was marked for identification.]
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Martens meeting with Jack Kelly in
OMB?
A No.
Q Do you know, did there come a time where you became aware that Mr.
Martens or Mr. -- and/or Mr. Thomason's efforts to obtain these
contracts, did there come a time when you became aware that this was
discontinued, any efforts on their part, anybody at the White House
calling a halt to any of those efforts?
A I didn't know they were speaking to anybody other than me, and I
basically called a halt to it around the time I got this memo. I mean
--
Q In the summer of 1993, were you aware of any memos written saying
that no action should be taken --
A No.
Q -- on this matter?
A No.
Q Did Mr. Panetta ever talk to you about anything having to do with
this project?
A No.
Q Or did Mr. Neel?
A Roy Neel?
Q Roy Neel?
A I don't think so.
Q Did Mr. Podesta or Mr. Stern?
A The first time I mentioned it -- I mentioned it to John when we did
the Travel Office and I saw the TM -- TMR or TRM. What is it?
Q TRM.
A -- TRM mentioned in there. I told John about these earlier
conversations. But that was the first time again I connected Darnell
Martens with the Travel Office matter.
Q And to your knowledge, was Mr. Podesta or Mr. Stern familiar with
the efforts to TRM?
A Not before I had -- I have no knowledge that they knew anything
about it before I had that conversation.
Q And they -- you recall them questioning you about what those efforts
were?
A Yeah. I raised it with them because I saw Darnell Martens and/or TRM
mentioned in the Travel Office matter when we were reviewing the
report, the manuscript report, and said, you know, associated the two
matters at that point.
Q Do you recall in the spring of 1993, around the March/April time
frame, discussing any matters related to the Secret Service with Harry
Thomason?
A Sorry, not -- not with that reference. Discussing --
Q Any matters related to the Secret Service?
A With Harry? No.
Q Do you know who Bob Coy is?
A No.
Q Showing the witness CGE 29184, which are notes taken by David
Watkins on April 16, 1993, and it references Bruce/Harry Thomason,
underneath it says "conversation with Hillary, conversation with
Bruce." At the top of the page, Harry's recommendation, Bob Coy,
California, two or three Presidential details, head of all protection
services in western U.S.
Is any of that familiar with you?
A Doesn't ring any bell at all, no, sir -- no, ma'am.
Q Did you have any involvement in handling California matters?
A No.
Q Does that fall under Mr. Emerson's bailiwick?
A You know, John is from California, was head of our campaign in
California, so he is involved in California matters. He was involved
in California matters even when he was my deputy, but that's mostly,
you know, political, not protective.
Q Do you know anything about any efforts that were being discussed in
the spring of 1993 of changing the Presidential detail?
A No.
Q Do you know any conversations that you would have had with -- it
does reference conversations with Bruce here. Do you know of any
conversations you would have had with David Watkins or Harry Thomasson
or the First Lady?
A No.
Q About having anything to do with the Secret Service?
A No. No, I'm trying to -- I can't place that in any sort of context.
Q Directing your attention to the bottom of that page it discusses,
asked for 5 percent kickback conduit.
Did Harry Thomason ever talk to you about anyone in the Travel Office
getting kickbacks?
A He told me he had heard rumors that that was the case, yes.
Q Do you recall when he told you that?
A No. Some time in the first couple of months. But beyond that, I
don't remember. I mean, before the Travel Office, before the Travel
Office firings.
Q Some time in the first couple of months of 1993?
A Yeah. I am going to say "couple." Some time between I think January
20th and middle of May.
Q Definitely prior to the firings?
A Yeah. The only reason I can relate that is because I think at the
time when Jeff Eller told me that they were going to terminate the
Travel Office people, I apparently asked him, does this relate to the
matter that Harry was concerned about, and so obviously I, at that
time, had to be aware that Harry was concerned about some matter, so I
mean I don't -- other than that, I can't relate it.
Q I will go ahead and make this Exhibit 9.
A Are you not making this --
Q Yes, CGE 29184, make that Exhibit 9.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. 9
was marked for identification.]
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Moving into the Travel Office firings then, do you recall when you
first learned about efforts to fire the Travel Office?
A Yeah. Probably the day before it happened.
Q Could you describe that contact?
A We were on a plane going to California from New Mexico, I guess, and
Jeff Eller, who was the press person on the airplane, came to me and
said that they were going to announce that -- at some point, I don't
recall exactly when, either that day or the next day, I thought that,
the Travel Office, that they were terminating the Travel Office staff,
and that's the way I learned about it.
Q And who did you tell about that?
A That evening I told the President.
Q And what did you tell the President?
A I think I told him just what I -- what Jeff had told me. At some
point he had shown me I think a memo and I had read it and I think I
related to the President what was reflected in the memo.
Q Do you recall, is that the May 17th memo?
A Probably was, you know. That's the one from David Watkins to Mack?
Q Yeah. Showing the witness a copy of the CGE 1323, May 17th memo to
Mack McLarty to David Watkins regarding the White House Travel Office,
cc to Hillary Rodham Clinton.
A Again, it probably was this memo. I don't recall it as this memo,
but I think it basically had the information that's contained in this
memo.
Q Do you recall the length of the memo? Did Mr. Eller give you a copy
of the memo?
A I think he showed me a copy. I think I gave it back to him after I
read it.
Q When you discussed it with the President, did he say anything,
acknowledge that Harry Thomason had told him about this?
A Did he acknowledge that?
Q Yes.
A No. I don't think so. I just think I -- I think he asked me why, and
I think I related what's in the -- what I had been told, either read
or told by Jeff Eller.
Q Did you --
A We were with other people at the time and we didn't have a
discussion about it.
Q We have a phone call made on the morning of May 17th from Air Force
1 to Bill Kennedy. Do you recall talking to Mr. Kennedy about the
firings of the Travel Office?
A Don't think so.
Q Do you know what you would have been calling Mr. Kennedy about on
that morning?
A No.
Q Do you know if you talked to Mr. Kennedy about the Travel Office
firings prior to the firings?
A Don't think so. I don't think I had much knowledge of it prior to
the -- to Jeff Eller telling me whatever he told me. And that was
probably just -- it was probably in the afternoon because I don't
think we were -- I think we went to Los Alamos or something in the
morning or midday and then we went on to San Diego, and I think it was
on the leg between Los Alamos and San Diego.
Q Was that the haircut trip?
A Ultimately, it was. That was the next day. Thanks.
Q So it was before the haircut?
A It was before the haircut. I think we went from San Diego to Los
Angeles and the haircut was in Los Angeles.
Q This is the phone message to Bill Kennedy from you. It has been
provided from Mr. Kennedy's phone log records, 10:00 on May 17th. I
don't know if it's morning or evening. You asked him to call, be
connected to Air Force 1.
You don't have any recollection of talking to Mr. Kennedy about that?
A Uh-uh.
Q I will make that Exhibit 11.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. 11
was marked for identification.]
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q This is CGEPR 331 through 334. I show you the notes from the White
House Management Review of an interview with you discussing these
matters. At the beginning of the notes, beginning on page 331, it
discusses when Harry said something to you about the Travel Office
demanding kickbacks, you said something to the effect of we're looking
into it.
Do you recall who was looking into it or what was being done in that
regard?
A No. I don't know whether that says -- well, I don't know whether
that's me or him talking.
Q Oh. That may be Harry Thomason was looking into it?
A Again, I don't know. It may be that, you know -- I don't know who --
I don't know if that's a quote from me.
Q I guess it would have been you or Mr. Thomason. So do you know if
you were looking into it?
A I wasn't looking into it, no.
Q Then I think it continues on discussing Jeff Eller had come to ask
you what was happening in the Travel Office. I think these are dated
May 15-16th, but I think the time frame may have been -- you were
saying it was the California trip which, I believe, was the 17th-18th.
So is the correct date, then, May 17th and 18th that a memo was shown
to you, or was there a different memo that was shone to you on the May
15th and 16th time frame?
A I will have to look at a calendar. But it was on the California
trip. So whenever that trip occurred.
Q That was on the 17th and 18th.
A Okay, that would have been the trip. I don't see the date.
Q I have my translation here. Okay, I'm sorry. At any rate, it's the
California trip.
A It was the California trip. So I don't know what the dates were, but
whenever that was.
Q I think it discusses an 8 a.m. meeting shortly after this, I guess
meaning shortly after the firings, were talking about a need for a
statement from the FBI I believe it says, I chimed in that we needed
to be careful with this, not to dig deeper. I think Christine agreed
immediately.
Do you know what that's regarding?
A I think we had already been criticized for mentioning the FBI at the
time of the filing -- the firing, and I think I was saying that we
just need to be careful that we not, you know, we not put ourselves
into a worse situation by now getting an additional statement or
something. I don't quite remember what they were trying to get from
the FBI, but I think that's what that reference is to.
Q And Christine is?
A Christine Varney.
Q Do you recall what her involvement was in terms of any discussions
regarding this?
A Well, again if it was in our early staff meeting, it would have --
she's cabinet affairs, so if we were having some sort of dealings with
the Department of Justice, she would be involved because of her
position as cabinet secretary.
Q Do you recall shortly after the firings having a meeting with Mr.
McLarty and others about how to handle the matter?
A We had a meeting. I don't know if it was shortly after the firings
or in the middle --
Q I mean a week or so following the firings?
A I am not sure. I thought it was in the middle of the management
review process. It could have been before that. It could have been
when we decided to set up the management review process. I -- I
remember a meeting which we went over a chronology, but I don't
remember exactly what the context was.
Q Do you recall who had done the chronologies in that meeting, who
provided them?
A No.
Q Did you prepare those chronologies?
A No.
Q I might have the wrong copy here. Is this your copy of the
chronology?
A That's my handwriting, yes.
Q It is. Is that the chronology --
A Yes.
Q -- that you recall working on?
A Yes. My guess is this was probably done around May 25th because it
says "as of May 25." I don't know whether that was -- anyway.
Q Do you recall who else was at that meeting?
A No. I mean Mack was there.
Q Do you recall Mr. McLarty being there?
A Yeah. It was in his office. I remember sitting around his conference
table. I don't remember who else was there.
Q Do you recall Mr. Foster being there?
A Probably. I would have thought he would have been. I don't have any
memory of any person being there. It was logical that Vince would have
been there.
Q Mr. Kennedy?
A Again, it would probably be logical that he was there, but I don't
remember.
Q Do you recall Mr. McLarty interrogating everybody about what
happened, having sort of an intense meeting?
A No. I mean, I don't remember that. I don't remember it being intense
or it was an interrogation. I think somebody sort of walked through
what had happened, again, the chronology, and people chimed in if they
knew about other things that happened, but I don't -- I don't remember
it being particularly tense.
Q Do you recall Mr. McLarty talking about a meeting that he had had
with the First Lady on May 16th, which was over the weekend, prior to
the firings?
A No.
Q Did anyone discuss any discussions or involvement of the First Lady
in weighing in in any way on the firings?
A Not that I recall. Again, beyond what is sort of in here and on
here, I don't know if I can tell you what anybody said or did in that
meeting.
Q Do you recall informing people in the meeting that you had talked
with the President about this prior to the firings?
A If they asked, I would have, but I don't recall it, no.
Q When you had told the President about the firings, do you recall
what he -- how he responded?
A I think he asked me why, and I think I said whatever was in the
memo, that they had found, you know, accounting abuses, that they had
no system, it was a mess and that there were funds that were missing
and that they could not be accounted for.
Q Did you mention Harry Thomason having urged the firings or urged a
review of the office in any way?
A No, I don't think so. Again, I don't recall the conversation, but I
don't think I would have associated Harry Thomason's initial feel with
that. Again, I don't know if Harry -- Harry never recommended firing
to me. Harry just indicated to me that he, you know, that he had heard
rumors that there were kickbacks.
Q In the memo which we had previously identified as Exhibit 10, a May
17th memo, the first paragraph it said, Urged by Harry Thomason, who
had heard rumors of criminal activity in the Travel Office, and
Catherine Cornelius, who had been observing the Travel Office, and we
placed the Travel Office under a review and began an emergency review
this past Friday.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. 10
was marked for identification.]
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Do you recall learning about that Harry Thomason was involved in
bringing this to everyone's attention in the White House?
A Well, Harry brought it to my attention. I don't think, you know --
so I would assume that I wasn't the only person he mentioned it to.
But I don't know who he spoke to or who -- or what was the impetus for
anybody taking any action.
Q Did anybody else besides Harry Thomason bring this to your attention
--
A Don't think so.
Q In the spring of 1993?
A No.
Q Did you ever hear any other rumors besides Harry Thomason talking to
you?
A No.
Q In terms of people, anyone ever tell you that they had heard about
this aside from having heard about it from Harry Thomason?
A I don't think I had any knowledge about what was going on in the
Travel Office other than a passing reference from Harry.
Q In the course of reviewing these chronologies and sort of the
postmortems after the firings, do you recall learning that Harry
Thomason had talked to the First Lady about the Travel Office prior to
the firings?
A No. I mean again, in all the postmortems I learned about it, but at
that point I didn't know about it.
Q And what did you learn about the conversations that he had had with
the First Lady?
A Whatever's in the report.
Q Do you have any independent knowledge of the --
A No.
Q -- where you had learned about conversations that Harry Thomason had
had with the First Lady?
A I think I learned it -- if it's in the report, I don't even know if
it's in the report. If it's in the report, I learned it in the report.
If not, I learned it in the press reviews of this.
Q Have you ever discussed that with anybody at the White House?
A Uh-uh. No.
Q Have you ever discussed -- you haven't discussed it with the
President or the First Lady?
A No.
Q Whether or not they had ever had any conversations with Harry
Thomason?
A No.
Q I am going to go ahead and make this chronology Exhibit 12.
A Did you make my interview notes an exhibit?
Q I did not.
A You did not, I'm sorry.
Q And I will get a pencil and erase this -- this is pencil on here, it
says "Bruce Lindsey," which is our handwriting, and I will just -- so
we have that on the record, that will be removed.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. 12
was marked for identification.]
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q On the top of these notes, you have "White House Personnel Security
Office." Do you know what you are referring to regarding the Travel
Office that you referenced the White House Personnel Security Office?
A No. I saw that in a copy I looked at. The only thing I can imagine
was that Bill Kennedy was saying how he came to talk to the FBI,
because he dealt with them, you know. My understanding was that Bill
said that he talked to the FBI about this because he dealt with them
on a regular basis and maybe that he talked to the people he dealt
with on a regular basis. So I don't know whether that is where that
came from or not. But beyond that, that's speculation on my part. I
don't remember how it -- what was said that caused me to write that.
I'm just trying to, looking back on it, I'm trying to figure out what
it would refer to.
Q Okay. You did not add on here anything about your conversation with
the President, is that correct, or --
A No. Again, I don't remember anybody asking.
Q Do you recall having any discussions prior to the White House
Management Review interview that you had with Mr. Podesta? Did you
have any conversations with Mr. Podesta about this, about the Travel
Office firings in general?
A Don't think so. I mean again, I don't know whether my interview was
prior to this chronology or not. If it was after that --
Q I believe it was after.
A I think he would have been in that meeting, but I didn't have any
individual conversations that I recall with John about it. I would
have been in meetings where it was talked about with John.
Q And what type of meetings would those be?
A Well, my gut is he would have been in this meeting, in the meeting
that this chronology was discussed.
Q Of the meeting of May 25th?
A Right. If that's when it was.
Q Or the meeting wherever the May 25th chronology was discussed?
A Right. And so -- but I never, other than being in group meetings
where he might be present, I don't recall any meetings with him before
he interviewed me for the management review.
Q And what kind of contact did you have with Mr. Podesta, if any, and
on what kind of regular basis or irregular?
A Oh, you know, most of my memos would ultimately go in and out of the
-- to the President through the staff secretary's office. So it would
be simply, you know, making sure that we sent in, when there were
decision memos on judges or on appointments, we would send in a
decision memo to the President. These are mostly on assistant
secretary and deputy secretary levels, SES and Schedule C's. They
would not go to the President. They would be decision memos. He would
either have to agree or disagree. And it would go in through the staff
secretary's office. So that would be my main contact with him.
Q Returning to those two, did the hiring of Craig Livingstone go
through your office at all?
A No. Again, no White House hiring went through our office.
Q You never weighed in on a recommendation or anything like that?
A On Craig?
Q On Craig?
A No.
Q At all?
A No. Like I said, if I met him, I probably met him twice, maybe three
times.
Q Did you weigh in on recommendations for other people at the White
House even if they weren't going through your office, people you
worked with in the campaign?
A If I knew them personally, yeah. If somebody came to me and said,
I'm trying to get a job in Alexis Herman's shop or in, you know,
Christine Varney's shop and I knew the person, I might send a note to
them saying, you know, Barbara Comstock has asked, you know, has
indicated an interest in working in your operation. She worked in the
campaign and did a good job.
Q You have a phone call from John Podesta late in the evening on May
19th. That was the day of the firings. Do you have any recollection --
A No.
Q -- what you would have been working with him at that time frame?
A No.
Q You don't recall talking to him with anything to do with the ICAP or
TRM matter?
A I don't have any idea what it would have to do with.
Q On May 20, Bill Kennedy had a meeting with you at 4:00; called
earlier in the day to set that up. Do you recall having a meeting with
Bill Kennedy about this shortly after the firings?
A I doubt if it would have had to do with this.
Q Would these be personnel matters?
A Yeah. Bill Kennedy did the review of the people that we were vetting
for these positions, so we would have meetings on a regular basis if
there were problems.
Q Or individuals getting appointments in the agencies?
A Right.
Q Mr. Kennedy would vet them?
A Right. And you know, they were vetted in the counsel's office before
we even make the appointment, and if there were no problems, he would
sign off on them. If there was a problem, he would want to discuss the
problem and, you know, we wouldn't normally do that by memo because
you didn't want paper setting out whatever the problems were related
to people. So he would come, have a meeting and go through three or
four people that there might be problems on that he thought we might
not be able to appoint to something because of the problems.
Q And to your knowledge, was Craig Livingstone involved in that
process at all, reviewing those files?
A I don't believe so.
Q Mr. Kennedy handled this on his own pretty much?
A Well, I think Mr. Kennedy and two or three other lawyers in the
counsel's office.
Q Do you know who those individuals were?
A No. We had a vetting operation. Again, it's much reduced now; it may
be gone now. But during 1993 when we had literally hundreds, if not
thousands, of appointments, we had vetting attorneys in the counsel's
office who worked for Dale. I don't know who they were but there would
be a record some place of who our vetting attorneys were. And those
would be the attorneys who would, you know, review the people who were
being recommended for appointments to various positions.
Q Did Mr. Kennedy ever tell you about any problems he was having in
moving through just the general paperwork and people not providing the
paperwork for him?
A No. I would -- people would get frustrated with me. I would get
frustrated with him because we couldn't make an appointment until the
vet was completed. We weren't going to nominate someone to be an
assistant secretary of whatever only to find out later there were, you
know, tax problems or other sorts of problems in their background.
So once -- we were slow enough, frankly, making decisions about who
these people were, but even once we made a decision as to who we were
going to nominate, we couldn't nominate them until the vet was
completed. So the people, after we would notify them that they had
been selected and that they now had to go through the vetting process,
and they would then, a month later or a month and a half later, 2
months later, call back wanting to know what the status of their
nomination was, and I would get frustrated with the counsel's office
because sometimes we wouldn't be able to tell them what their status
was because of the backlog.
Q Were you familiar with the counsel's office or Mr. Livingstone's
office doing name checks on individuals that you were considering for
appointment?
A They didn't -- I don't think -- well, I don't know what they did. I
don't know what the counsel's office did. We did what we call a public
record vet before we made a decision to nominate, and that was we
basically put it into -- did a nexus search and, you know, if we would
put Barbara Comstock into nexus and pull up every article that your
name had been mentioned in over, you know, whatever period of time
that the system went back, we would then write a memo which would be
as much information as we could gather from that, you know, if there
was an article that talked about your background or something. But it
would all be from the public record. Based upon that, we would try to
-- that would help us make the initial decision as to whether or not
to recommend for nomination.
Q To your knowledge, would somebody in the counsel's office either ask
Mr. Livingstone or do it themselves or ask the FBI to do some kind of
initial name check or background check?
A I would assume that that was part of their vetting, but I don't know
exactly at what point, you know.
Q That's what I'm trying to find out, if you know what point, if it
was just sort of check out Joe or --
A I don't know. I don't believe we did name checks or background
checks with the FBI before we had made an initial decision to appoint
and were in the vetting process.
Q So would you do this process that you've described sort of as the
background general vetting on your part and then sort of seriously
considering them before you would go to the counsel's office asking
for any kind of law enforcement vetting?
A Right. We would only do law enforcement vetting, if you will, on
those people we intended to go forward with. I mean, they were backed
up enough so we couldn't give them five names and say, we're
considering any one of these five people to be assistant secretary of
the Interior, do a background search on them. We would try to pick the
person we were prepared to recommend and we would usually get an
initial sign-off on them subject to a full vet. Then once that
occurred, they would then go to the counsel's office.
The counsel's office would perform a vet. If there was no problem,
then the process would just move forward without any additional steps.
If there was a problem, we would then evaluate the problem and either,
you know, decide to go forward with them or not go forward with them.
Q Okay. To your knowledge, I know -- well, were you involved in any
kind of Supreme Court appointments or anything like that?
A Yes.
Q How would that process go in terms of requesting a name check on a
Supreme Court appointment? Would it be the top three candidates or
would it be -- where did you --
A I'm not even sure -- I'm not even sure we did that on Supreme -- I
don't know if we did that sort of vet. We did our own vet on Supreme
Court candidates and we went -- sent someone to visit two or three top
candidates. Usually we would again try to select -- we would try to do
it one at a time almost. We would again try to select the person we
thought we wanted to nominate and then send a staff person to sit down
with them to answer a questionnaire to look at their --
Q With their attorney?
A Yes, to look at their background, to look at their tax records, and
then if a problem came up in that process, we would then move on to
the next candidate. I'm not sure we ever vetted with the FBI or with
any Federal agency a Supreme Court nominee before we actually
nominated.
Q Okay. Do you know --
A We might, but I think we did it internally.
Q Do you know if Mario Cuomo, anyone requesting Mario Cuomo's being
vetted or have a name check done on him for any appointment in 1993 or
1994 that you are familiar with?
A No.
Q Was he being asked to --
A Well, he was considered for a Supreme Court -- he removed himself
fairly early in the process, so I -- I would be surprised if we had
asked for anything on that. I don't know whether --
Q Do you know the process of who would have asked for such a -- if a
request was made?
A No. I mean, the people who were involved in Supreme Court selections
would have been the President, the Vice President, the counsel, Vince
when he was alive, and me. Then other people might --
Q And the counsel being the White House counsel --
A The White House counsel.
Q Or others in the counsel's office?
A No. At least in the meetings with the President and Vice President,
it would mostly be back then Bernie, Vince, me, the President and the
Vice President.
Q To your knowledge, did anyone ever request that you move forward
with Mario Cuomo's --
A Not to my knowledge.
Q -- background check or anything like that?
A Not to my knowledge, no. In fact, if I remembered right, I thought
Mario Cuomo, about the time his name first got floated, basically took
himself out, you know. I mean, about the time anybody in the press was
speculating about it, he indicated he was not interested. But again, I
don't know.
Q Do you know who Dr. Irwin Redlener is?
A No.
Q Got a message from May 26th, Dr. Irwin Redlener, R-E-D-L-E-N-E-R,
called you regarding a meeting with Jeff Eller and others in
Georgetown for a meeting that evening that says, quote, "He has a
memo."
A Is his first name Irv?
Q Irwin, doctor.
Why don't I return to that. Do you recall discussing the Travel Office
matter with Jeff Eller after that conversation that you had on the
plane?
A No. I don't think so.
Q Do you recall any meeting you had in Georgetown regarding a memo?
A No.
Q Do you have other -- what other -- do you have other issues you
worked with Jeff Eller on?
A No. But I mean everybody had candidates for various positions. So
anybody could recommend anybody and did for some position.
Q Do you recall ever having any discussions with Bernie Nussbaum
following the firings generally about the Travel Office matter?
A Not generally. I recall a conversation I had with him when he was
unhappy.
Q And what was the time frame?
A Shortly after the -- well, I don't know the time frame. It was --
there was this meeting in which the FBI was present and somebody
justified the meeting, justified their being there and the FBI being
there on the basis that Bernie was there, and they assumed that if
Bernie was there that there was no -- there was no problem with it.
And Bernie was upset because Bernie said it wasn't his meeting, he
didn't know the FBI was going to be there, he just showed up and just
to sort of now try to sort of say that his presence made it okay or
something, he was not happy about.
Q Was he upset with the communications staff or whoever?
A Whoever had represented that. I frankly don't remember who was out
there sort of giving a justification for the meeting and why they
thought it was okay to have the meeting because of Bernie's presence,
but he wasn't happy about. That he was also extremely unhappy that
Vince and Bill -- not Vince, Bill had been reprimanded in the Travel
Office report.
Q Did you discuss that with him?
A Oh, yeah.
Q And what did he tell you?
A He thought it was wrong. He didn't think he had done anything wrong.
Q You had a discussion with Mr. Kennedy?
A No, I had a discussion with Mr. Nussbaum.
Q Nussbaum about Mr. Kennedy?
A About Mr. Kennedy being reprimanded. He was unhappy. We had had a
meeting. We had had a briefing I think the morning of the Travel
Office report and no one had mentioned that Bill was going to be
reprimanded. Bernie I think was at that meeting. I think Bernie
thought if it had come up at that meeting he would have expressed his
unhappiness, and he felt like if anyone in the counsel's office should
be reprimanded, it should be him. But he didn't think anybody at the
counsel's office should be reprimanded, that he didn't think anybody
in the counsel's office did anything wrong.
Q Do you recall who else was in that meeting that morning when the
reprimands were not mentioned? Would that be the morning of July 25
when the report was issued?
A I believe so. It was a general meeting in which I think Leon and
Mack and John Podesta and probably Todd Stern was sort of briefing
everything on what their findings were.
Q In the course of this, they did not mention anyone being
reprimanded?
A I don't think. So I don't believe there was any reference to anybody
being reprimanded. And later that day when they announced the
decisions, they announced the reprimands. When they released the
report, they announced the reprimands and I think he was unhappy that
it hadn't come up at the meeting so that he could express his opinion
before the fact.
Q Were you aware of Mr. Nussbaum talking to Mr. McLarty about his
displeasure with the reprimands?
A I think it's fair to say I think Bernie talked to anybody that he
found. He was hot. So you know, I did not know he had talked to Mack.
It would not surprise me that he talked to Mack or he probably talked
to Mack's secretary, that he probably talked to my secretary, anybody
that would -- was around that afternoon he let know his opinion of
what he thought of the action.
Q Okay. Just returning briefly to the phone message.
A Back to Redlener.
Q I'll make this Exhibit 13. It has a New York phone number, if that
helps. It's 11:02, May 26th meeting with Jeff Eller. I guess Dr.
Redlener was, it says, getting together with Jeff Eller and others.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. 13
was marked for identification.]
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q What do you think about his meeting with Jeff are you arranging of
which he has a memo?
A If you want me to guess what I think this is; my gut is that some
time when we were in New York that Mr. Redlener tried to engage a
conversation with the President about maybe health care. I'm making
this up.
Q Okay. Well, if you don't know, I'm not asking you to speculate.
A Oftentimes I become sort of a contact for people who see the
President. Because the President says, why don't you talk to Bruce
about that, then I end up talking to them and then they follow up and
I try to put them with whoever the appropriate person is, you know, to
deal with that.
So Jeff, around this time, I think was also -- was also doing health
care, though it may have been later. My guess is that he had an issue
that I -- that he wanted to talk to the President about, the President
gave to me, that I said the right person you need to talk to is Mr.
Eller. And then when I got back, I tried to arrange a meeting, or put
the two people together for a meeting.
Q Were you aware of Bernie Nussbaum talking to the First Lady about
the Travel Office matter? You said he was talking to whoever he could.
A Again, I don't know who Bernie talked to other than me, but it was
clear to me Bernie would clearly talk to anybody who would listen.
Q Did you talk with Mr. Foster about the report, the aftermath of the
firings?
A I don't know. I think Bernie indicated that Vince was also unhappy.
I don't know whether I ever said anything to Vince or Vince ever said
anything to me about it. I don't remember.
Q Were you aware of Mr. Foster talking with the First Lady at or
around the time of the issuance of the management review?
A No.
Q Did Mr. Nussbaum ever tell you about such a meeting?
A No, I don't think so.
Q Were you aware of Skip Rutherford working in any way on reviewing
the management review or assisting in it?
A No. Skip would help -- Skip would help Mack when he had public
appearances, and since Mack was going to do a press conference related
to this, Skip might have had something to do with preparing Mack for
that. But beyond that, I wouldn't have any knowledge.
Q Were you aware of Mr. Rutherford being on the DNC payroll?
A Yes.
Q Was he working as a consultant to the DNC?
A Yes.
Q Do you know what he was doing at the White House at that time?
A Mostly he was -- would assist Mack with sort of public events,
public statements, public -- when he had to give a speech, when he
had, you know, Meet the Press or some sort of public appearance.
Q Do you know how often he was at the White House in the spring/summer
1993 time frame?
A No.
Q Do you know if he had a White House pass?
A No.
Q Do you recall when you, approximately when you received your
permanent White House pass?
A No.
Q Do you recall any problems related to, in general, the process of
getting White House passes, permanent White House passes?
A I remember Patsy Thomasson testifying and the issue coming up. But
other than the hearings that were held, no.
Q Do you recall at that time frame when that came up whether or not
you had your permanent pass?
A No, I don't remember.
Q Do you recall any problems that arose in your getting your pass --
A No.
Q That anyone talked to you about?
A No. Actually, I did my interview I think before we came here,
actually while we were still in Little Rock.
Q Did Mr. Kennedy tell you about any problems that he was having with
moving through the White House passes for the White House staff
employees?
A No.
Q Are you aware of any contacts that Mr. Hubbell had during the May,
June, July time frame on the Travel Office matter?
A No.
Q Were you aware of him preparing congressional correspondence on this
at the Justice Department?
A No.
Q Do you know if he talked with anyone at the White House about this?
A Not that I am aware.
Q Or did you ever talk to anybody who told you they were working with
Mr. Hubbell --
A No.
Q -- on these matters?
A No.
Q Do you know a Nancy McFadden?
A Sure. She was one of his assistants at the Department of Justice.
Q Do you know if she was helping Ricki Seidman with Travel Office
related matters at all?
A No.
Q To your knowledge, what involvement did Ricki Seidman have --
A I was trying to figure out.
Q -- with the Travel Office?
A She was --
Q In communications.
A Was she in communications then or scheduling?
Q At that time she was still in communications and I think
transitioning into assisting Mr. McLarty; I think advance came in the
fall.
A No, I don't know what role she would have played in any of this.
[Off the record 12:03 p.m. to 12:06 p.m.]
Q I wanted to get a few miscellaneous things and then move on.
Who do you generally report to when you were -- well, as presidential
personnel?
A To the President and Chief of Staff.
Q Directly. So in 1993, it was to Mr. McLarty and to the President?
A Yeah. Basically on a personnel matter, I dealt directly with the
President so that they simply -- once we made a recommendation, that
recommendation would go through the staff secretary to the President.
On other matters, I would often report through Mr. McLarty.
Q On something like the Harry Thomason, Darnell Martens, TRM matter,
did you report to anybody on those kind of things?
A No. I mean, I didn't do anything on them other than have a meeting
and decide that, you know, we shouldn't do anything so I didn't report
anything. I probably -- again, I have some vague memory that I
mentioned it to Elaine Kamarck. I don't believe I ever got around to
sending her the material on it.
Q Do you know if you ever -- we may have covered this so I apologize.
Have you ever talked, to this date, with Harry Thomason about this
matter since then?
A No. Not substantively.
Q Well, in any --
A Well, I probably have told him, you know, we probably have
commiserated about what a lousy place Washington, D.C., is, but other
than just a general session in which we would complain about how life
has treated us, no.
Q To your knowledge, have your attorneys talked with Mr. Thomason's
attorneys about any of these matters?
A Don't think so.
Q Have Mr. Thomason's attorneys ever contacted you about any of these
matters?
RPTS STEIN
DCMN MAYER
[12:10 p.m.]
A Me directly?
Q You directly.
A No.
Q How frequently do you see Mr. Thomason?
A I probably -- I don't know. I probably haven't seen him in a year.
So not frequently.
Q To your knowledge, is he involved with any campaign or aviation
matters with the campaign this time around?
A I think he is involved in a campaign matter.
Q Do you know what his involvement in the campaign is?
A Yes. I think it is going to be way beyond the scope --
Q Do you know if he will be involved with transportation in this
campaign?
A No. The Air Force provides us with aviation and transportation.
Q Do you know if he is doing something in the image consulting
business?
A Beyond -- he has a role or involvement in the campaign.
Q Do you know if he is paid for that role?
A I doubt it, but I do not know.
Q We were talking earlier about Mr. Nussbaum and Mr. Foster being
unhappy with the management review and the reprimand of Mr. Kennedy.
Do you know if Susan Thomases -- did you ever talk with her about the
management review or, generally, the Travel Office matter?
A I don't think so.
Q Were you aware of her talking to Mr. Nussbaum or Mr. Foster about
the Travel Office?
A No.
Q Were you aware of her having meetings with Mr. Foster in the July
1993 time frame discussing matters in the Travel Office?
A No.
Q Did you ever have conversations with Mr. Watkins in the June or July
time frame about the Travel Office?
A I don't believe so.
Q Are you familiar with what was produced earlier, in January 1996,
the Watkins soul cleansing memo? That was his description of it.
A No.
Q Do you recall -- have you reviewed that document?
A No.
Q This is CGE 12286 through -94. Are you generally familiar with the
memo?
A I am familiar with the testimony of what he testified, or at least
the written press reports of the testimony. If I remember right, it
wasn't on television.
Q That is correct.
Mr. Goldberg. Don't look at me.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q How long have you known Mr. Watkins?
A Probably the 1990 campaign for governor.
Q Did you work with him during the campaign in 1992?
A I am not sure "worked with him" is correct. He had a role. I
actually had something to do with him having that role, but once the
campaign was sort of up and going, I didn't have any involvement on a
day-to-day basis with him.
Q Was his position Deputy Campaign Manager?
A For Operations.
Q He worked from Little Rock?
A Right.
Q And you were the Campaign Manager and you traveled with candidates?
A Campaign Director, but yes.
Q Did Mr. Watkins ever discuss with you any of the sentiments he has
stressed in this memo, regarding that he felt the firings had been
urged by Mr. McLarty and the First Lady and Harry Thomason?
A No.
Q You have had no discussions with Mr. Watkins about the Travel
Office?
A I don't believe -- I cannot recall any conversation I have ever had
with anybody about the Travel Office.
Q When did you first learn about this memo?
A Either shortly before he testified or when he testified. I don't
remember whether there was a report about the memo before his actual
testimony or -- but around the time that we turned over, the White
House turned over to the committee the memo, I guess I would have
learned about it.
Q That was your first public knowledge of it?
A Yes.
Q Did anyone at the White House tell you about it?
A No, no one at the White House told me.
Q In your position now as Deputy Counsel, who do you report to?
A Jack Quinn.
Q Are you familiar with a team of attorneys that Ms. Sherburne has?
A Yes.
Q Do you know who her team reports to?
A I think they report both to the Chief of Staff and to the Counsel.
Q Are you familiar with them reporting to Harold Ickes?
A They may report to the Chief of Staff through Harold. I am not sure
who within the Chief of Staff's office, but that would be the Chief of
Staff's office.
Q Do you have any reporting relationship with Harold Ickes, or do you
solely report to Mr. Quinn?
A I consult with Mr. Ickes on legal issues, but I don't report to Mr.
Ickes.
Q Were you aware of Harold Ickes having conversations with Harry
Thomason in the spring, summer of 1993 time period about anything
having to do with the Travel Office?
A Harold and -- no, I don't believe so. Before Harold -- Harold didn't
come to the White House until December or January of '93-94. No, I
have no knowledge.
Q He began at the White House in January 1994. Prior to that, he had a
White House pass and was at the White House frequently. Did you see
him at the White House frequently?
A I don't know if I saw him frequently. I saw him at the White House,
but I didn't know he had a White House pass and I don't know of any
conversations between Harry Thomason and Harold in 1993.
Q Were you aware of Susan Thomases being in touch with Harry Thomason
for any reason in July of 1993?
A No.
Q Do you know of any matters that Mr. Thomason and Susan Thomases
worked on?
A No. Again, I don't know when Harry worked, was working on what you
called this "image project." If it extended up until July, they might
be talking about that.
Q I believe that was over in May of 1993. I was speaking of in July of
1993, Ms. Thomases has testified in the Senate that she did have
conversations with Mr. Foster in the week or so before his death,
regarding the Travel Office.
Do you have any knowledge of those conversations at that time, or at
any time, to Susan Thomases' public testimony?
A I am trying to figure out whether Mr. Stewart's book came before her
public testimony or not.
Q It probably did. That is relating to Mr. Stewart's book.
A I don't believe I had any knowledge of those conversations before
his book.
Q Did you talk with anyone about the accounts in Mr. Stewart's book
regarding Mr. Foster?
A I think I have heard Susan say that they were mischaracterized, but
I don't know if she said that or someone told me that that was what
she was saying.
Q Were you aware of Mr. Foster talking to Jim Lyons about assisting in
matters related to the Travel Office?
A I don't believe at the time I was. I know what Mr. Lyons has said
publicly since then about his conversations.
Q What is your understanding of that?
A My understanding was that Vince was concerned or thought maybe that
either he or the Counsel's Office ought to get outside representation,
and were talking to Jim about whether that was necessary or not,
whether Jim thought that was necessary or not.
Q Has Mr. Lyons talked to you about this?
A We talked about it. I don't know if he has ever said anything to me
that -- we have never had a discussion about his conversation. We have
had discussions about the reports of his conversation and what he has
told various reporters.
Q Do you recall when you first learned that he had had those
conversations with Mr. Foster?
A I think it was probably when they released Vince's phone records or
phone logs after his death -- I don't quite remember when that was --
and they listed the various people who were -- he had had
conversations with.
Q Do you recall Mr. Lyons coming to the White House on July 22, 1993,
two days after Mr. Foster's death?
A He went to the funeral. He may well have flown here and flown to the
funeral with us. You would have to look at the manifest.
Q That was on Friday, July 23rd.
A Yes.
Q There are White House records showing that Mr. Lyons had a visit at
the White House with you on the evening of July 22nd at approximately
6 p.m.?
A We probably had dinner.
Q Do you recall talking with him about this matter at that time?
A I don't know if at that time he told me that he had talked with
Vince or not. I am sure we talked mostly about Vince, but I don't
recall whether that was when I talked to him or not.
Q Were you aware of Mr. Lyons reviewing documents at the time at the
White House?
A On the 22nd?
Q On the 22nd.
A No.
Q Are you familiar with the review on July 22nd?
A Yes.
Q Were you involved in that process?
A I was involved in a meeting before the process.
Q Who was that meeting with?
A Bernie, me, Jack Quinn, Mack may have been in and out. I don't know
who else.
Q Do you recall where the meeting was?
A I think it was in Mack's office. I am not sure Mack was there the
whole time. We were sort of meeting in his office, and he was in and
out.
Q Generally, you discussed --
A Yes. We were talking about what level of access we should give, we
were talking about privilege, we were talking about what kind of
documents might be in the office and how the review of the documents
should take place.
Q Do you recall if you had any discussions about any documents related
to the Travel Office matter?
A No. We didn't have any discussion about any documents. In
particular, it was more there are Supreme Court vetting records in
there, there are other records that may have different
classifications, and there are records that are protected by
attorney-client privilege. So it was more categories, types of
documents, and based on that, how should the review take place.
Q Did Mr. Nussbaum ever tell you about -- a week or so following Mr.
Foster's death, about a notebook that he had found?
A No.
Q Of Mr. Foster's, about the Travel Office?
A No.
Q Do you recall when you first learned about Mr. Foster's Travel
Office notebook?
A Yes. I think it was probably this year -- whenever it sort of became
public.
Q I am not going to put this into the record, but it is CGE 894
through CGE 898, which is a handwritten Travel Office notebook of Mr.
Foster's, discussing various issues and roles of various people in the
Travel Office matter.
Have you seen this document before?
A Never have. Can I see it?
Mr. Goldberg. It will take you 2 hours to go through it.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q You first learned about this notebook when it became public; is that
your recollection?
A Yes. I think there may have been some published reports before --
before it sort of came out that there was a notebook or that he had a
notebook, there were reports that made reference to his notes. I am
trying to remember what, whether they were in a magazine piece or
something, which at the time I thought was curious because I didn't
know what it had reference to. Later, I learned that there was some
fairly extensive notebook, like this.
Q Have you discussed this with anyone in the Counsel's Office?
A No.
Q Are you -- in terms of the document production or anything related
to the investigations, are you at all involved in those processes, or
are you informed of what is going on with those matters?
A On the Travel Office no. We had several multiple document
productions going on, and there are others that I am involved in, but
I am not involved in the Travel Office matters.
Q Ms. Sherburne does not keep you apprised of documents, give you a
heads up on something that is coming out, or something like that?
A No.
Q Were you aware of Mr. Foster talking to Jim Hamilton about the
Travel Office matter, asking him to provide assistance for White House
employees?
A No.
Q Did you talk to Mr. Nussbaum about that at any time after Mr.
Foster's death?
A I don't think so. I mean, at some point -- well, I knew Jim
represented the family, I guess. I don't know -- beyond that, I don't
know if I knew anything else. After Vince's death, he represented the
family.
Q Were you aware of him being asked to represent employees at the
White House regarding the Travel Office matter in general?
A No.
Q Or of Mr. Nussbaum or Mr. Foster asking him to consider doing so?
A No.
Q Did you have any conversations with the First Lady about the Watkins
memo at any time?
A No.
Q Or anyone in her office?
A No.
Q Or the President?
A No.
Q Neither of them have ever commented to you about the Watkins memo,
or anything, since it has been released?
A The First Lady hasn't. Whether or not the President has ever made a
passing comment about it, I don't remember. We never had a substantive
conversation about it.
Q Do you recall what the passing comments were?
A No. No. I don't even know if there was one, but when it was in the
press, it is possible that he would have said something to me, but I
don't recall any conversation with him about it.
Q Do you recall him ever saying anything about the veracity of the
Watkins memo or anything like that?
A No.
Q Likewise, regarding Craig Livingstone, has the President offered any
opinions to you or expressed about where Mr. Livingstone came from, or
asked you if you knew?
A I think he asked me one time whether or not White House personnel,
the office I had, had anything to do with hiring -- whether we had any
dealings with hiring the White House personnel; and I told him we did
not. Beyond that, I don't think so.
He liked his wife's comments that when she meets Mrs. Livingstone, she
will say, "Mrs. Livingstone, I presume." Any comment beyond that --
Q To your knowledge, did the President know who Craig Livingstone was?
A I doubt it. I don't think he did.
Q Didn't recognize him?
A I don't know whether he had seen him. I don't know whether he ever
had any interaction with him since he has been at the White House.
Q Did you have any discussions with Mr. Podesta in the weeks following
Mr. Foster's death about anything related to the Travel Office matter
in the context of the finding of the note?
A No.
Q Did Mr. Podesta ever ask you any questions about if you could
explain anything that was in the note or anything to that effect?
A I don't remember -- I had a conversation with someone about the
reference to Kaki Hocker Smith and the First Lady and the ushers. I
can't tell you whether it was with John or not.
Q You had a July 27th meeting with Roger Johnson from the GSA. Do you
know if that had anything to do with ICAP or the Travel Office?
A It didn't.
Q Did you ever meet with Roger Johnson on anything relating to ICAP or
civilian aircraft?
A No. I assume you are talking about people in his department.
Q Were you aware of members of the Counsel's Office being in touch
with attorneys for outside witnesses and people on a regular basis?
A With respect to the Travel Office?
Q Yes.
A No.
Q Are you aware of anyone in the Counsel's Office talking to Harry
Thomason's attorneys?
A No.
Q Do you have knowledge of reading internal memos, or anything, to
Harry Thomason's attorney?
A No.
Q Have you done that on other investigative matters, provided
information that the White House had to outside witnesses?
A No.
You asked earlier whether my attorneys had ever had a conversation
with Harry Thomason's attorneys. I don't have an attorney on this
matter. I said I didn't think so.
Q You have an attorney on other matters?
A On other matters. I don't have an attorney on this matter, so I am
pretty sure my attorney on this matter has never spoken to Harry
Thomason's attorneys.
Q It was reported that on the night of Foster's death, the First
Lady's second call had been to Harry Thomason. Do you have any
knowledge of that?
A No.
Q Prior to the Watkins' soul cleansing memo that we previously looked
at, were you aware of any other notes that Mr. Watkins had done
mentioning the First Lady that you ever heard any concerns expressed
about?
A No.
Q Do you know Catherine Cornelius?
A Yes.
Q Did you ever have any discussions with her about the Travel Office?
A No.
Q Did you ever have any discussions with her about problems she was
having working with David Watkins?
A No.
Q Were you ever aware of her expressing any concerns that Mr. Watkins
had created a hostile environment for Ms. Cornelius in her job?
A No.
Q Are you familiar with any problems that Mr. Watkins had in
connection with sexual harassment, anything like that?
A I am aware of the incident in the campaign.
Q And could you describe that?
A No.
Q Are you familiar with the incident?
A No. I am familiar with the charge, but, one, it is protected by a
confidentiality agreement; two, it is way beyond the scope.
Q Are you familiar with the contents of that agreement?
A I am familiar basically with the contents of that agreement, yes.
Q Were you involved with that agreement?
A Yes.
Q Did you discuss this with anyone when Mr. Watkins was hired at the
White House?
A No. I don't think so. I didn't hire Mr. Watkins at the White House.
He was an Assistant to the President. The President and Mack, I think,
hired the Assistants to the President, and then the Assistants to the
President hired their staffs.
Q Did you discuss this with the President? Is he aware of this
settlement?
A I don't know the answer to that. I don't think so.
Q Were you one of the Attorneys who worked on the settlement?
A I worked with the attorneys, yes, on the settlement.
Q Were you one of the attorneys?
A Yes.
Q So you were working on this in the context as an attorney?
A Yes. As a labor lawyer actually.
Q So you are claiming a privilege in that matter?
A Yes.
Q Was Ms. Varney the main attorney who was working on that matter?
A Yes.
Q You were assisting her? Can I get a sense of how you were assisting
her?
A We were consulting on it, discussing it.
Q This was a matter that involved Mr. Watkins?
A Yes.
Q I will keep that open for the record.
Were you aware of any similar-type problems in the area of sexual
harassment that Mr. Watkins had while he was at the White House?
A No.
Q Were you aware of any personnel policies, in your role as
presidential Personnel Director have any policies in those matters?
A The White House Office of Personnel didn't have anything to do with
White House personnel. I probably reviewed our antidiscrimination
policy, yes.
Q Was that a factor in terms of your recommending or hiring people for
the administration?
A Again, we didn't hire people in the White House.
Q Recommended, I understand.
A I think I would not have recommended someone whom I believed had
engaged in sexual harassment or race discrimination or age
discrimination.
Q Were you aware of anyone in the Counsel's Office meeting with David
Watkins' attorney at any time to discuss testimony he had given to any
civil or criminal investigators?
A No.
Q In the course of the various investigations in the fall of 1993 and
spring of 1994, did Neil Eggleston contact you about turning over
documents related to Harry Thomason?
A I don't -- I don't remember whether it was right to Harry Thomason,
but I think in connection with at least an OPR and maybe a GAO review
he contacted me about turning over documents. I don't know what the
items were on the documents.
Q I believe at least some of the documents were those that we have
previously identified as exhibits earlier, sort of the ICAP documents
generally.
A Right.
Q Do you recall participating in any discussions about turning over
those documents to various investigative bodies?
A No. I may have had discussions with Neil about my documents, but
beyond my documents, no.
Q Did you ever have any discussions with Mr. Nussbaum or anyone else
in the Counsel's Office about whether or not these were documents that
should be turned over?
A In general, no, I don't believe so.
Q Did anyone ever talk to you about being interviewed by the GAO in
terms of Harry's contacts with the White House?
A I think I was interviewed by the GAO, I think either the GAO or OPR.
Q I thought it was Public Integrity.
A You could be right. I thought I had met with more than one. I met
with whoever --
Q Do you recall any discussions about whether or not you had
participated in certain interviews or who was requesting you to be
interviewed?
A If I was ever asked to be interviewed by any agency -- either GAO,
OPR or whoever -- I met with them. Beyond that I don't recall. I
thought I did more than one interview.
Mr. Goldberg. For the record, my records show that, Public Integrity
and OPR on separate occasions.
The Witness. Maybe that is the two.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Were you aware of any concerns expressed about turning over any of
these ICAP documents to GAO in particular?
A ICAP documents, no.
Q We received these ICAP documents, I guess it was September of 1995,
the committee did. Do you recall participating in any discussions at
that time about the turning over of these documents?
A No.
Q So you have not participated in any discussions in the Counsel's
Office about production of documents to this committee?
A No. This committee on this subject?
Q On the ICAP documents.
A No.
Q When we received those documents, they were identified as having
come from your office. Sometimes they identify where the documents
originated, sometimes they don't know where they originated, so it
just says Counsel's Office.
Do you know if in September of 1995 those documents were physically
still in your custody, or had you turned them over to the Counsel's
Office at some point prior to September of 1995?
A If OPR or Public Integrity asked for documents -- I thought they did
-- they would have been turned over to the Counsel's Office in
response to those requests. And so the Counsel's Office would still
have the originals or copies, whatever they ended up giving you of
those agencies. So I think the documents at that point would have been
in their possession.
Q At whatever point Public Integrity requested documents and the
Counsel's Office requested them from you, you turned over your
documents at that time?
A The originals would have gone to the Counsel's Office. If later
requests were broader or different than the earlier requests, then if
I had any additional documents that fit the broader, different
requests, I would have turned those documents over to the Counsel's
Office.
Q In early December, early to mid-December of 1993, do you recall any
particular issues -- at that time, to put it in context, the GAO
review was going on, the OPR review was going on and the Public
Integrity investigation was going on. Do you recall meetings you had
with Mr. Nussbaum or Mr. Eggleston about Travel Office matters?
A No. I met with Neil, who sat with me in whatever interviews I had,
but beyond my own testimony and that, I didn't have any sort of
general discussions, I don't believe, with Bernie or Neil about it.
Q In any meetings that you attended did Mr. Eggleston or Mr. Nussbaum
relate what happened in other interviews of other White House
employees?
A No.
Q Did anyone ever tell you anything about David Watkins' GAO
interview?
A No.
Q Where he mentioned conversations with the First Lady about the
Travel Office?
A No.
Q Were you aware of any efforts in the December 1993-June 1994 time
frame to move Mr. Watkins out of the White House or get him some other
job?
A Prior to the helicopter incident, no.
Q The helicopter was May 1994.
A No.
Q Prior to the helicopter, were you aware of any efforts at moving Mr.
Watkins, separate and apart from the helicopter incident?
A No.
Q Did you talk with Mr. Watkins about the helicopter incident before
he left the White House?
A I frankly don't recall. He may have told me that he thought what he
did was right and proper, but I don't know. I don't have a specific
recollection of that.
Q Have you kept in touch with Mr. Watkins over the past several years?
A I have seen him once. I saw him at a Christmas party about a year
ago, 6-1/2 months ago.
Q He has a number of phone calls to you in August of 1994. Do you know
why he was calling you in August of 1994, for any reason?
A No, not specifically.
Q Did he ever talk with you about any testimony that he gave to the
Independent Counsel or to any congressional committees regarding Mr.
Foster's documents or handling of any documents?
A No.
Q Have you talked with Mr. Kennedy about any of these Travel Office
matters in the time frame since Mr. Kennedy has left the White House?
A No.
Q Do you keep in touch with both Mr. Kennedy and Mr. Watkins at all?
A I keep in touch with Mr. Kennedy; I don't keep in touch with Mr.
Watkins.
Q You have a phone call of May 16, 1995 where David Watkins called
you, and the message was very personal. May 16, 1995. That was a year
ago.
A I think I know what that is about.
Q Was it anything related to any Travel Office investigations or
anything related to Mr. Foster's death or documents or anything to
that effect?
A No.
Q Nothing related to the matters that we have defined in our opening
statement?
A No. Well, let me tell you what I think it relates to. It think it
relates to an event at the White House he wanted to attend that he
helped to set up before he left, or recommended that we do it. It was
a golf event. I didn't think it was a good idea.
Q I assume that was a golf event, sans helicopter?
A There was some sort of national -- they had a golf tournament here
in D.C. I think called the President's Cup Golf Tournament, and they
were having some sort of reception at the White House for all the
people participating in this golf thing, and he wanted to be invited
to that. I don't think he was invited.
Q Were you aware of Harry Thomason being at the White House in the
fall of 1995, shortly before Mr. Dale's trial?
A I am aware of Mr. Thomason being at the White House at various
times. I don't relate any of it to Billy Dale's trial.
Q Do you recall how often Mr. Thomason was at the White House?
A No. If he has business or something, or is there to see someone, he
may come into the White House, but I don't know how often that is.
Q Did you ever participate in any discussions about Mr. Dale's trial
--
A No.
Q -- with Mr. Thomason or with anybody else at the White House?
A No. I never understood -- never mind.
Q Did you ever talk with Mr. Kennedy about his comments that have been
reported by the FBI that the interest in the Travel Office matter came
from the highest levels of the White House?
A I thought he said at one time he didn't say that. I never had a
conversation about it. I thought he publicly said that he never said
that.
Q Since three or four FBI agents had reported that he had said it, did
he ever discuss with you any explanation of the discrepancy?
A No. The only thing I remember is reading, or that he said he didn't
say it.
Ms. Comstock. We will just take a minute to go through some things.
Did you have any questions?
Mr. Goldberg. No.
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Following the Travel Office firings, were you aware of any problems
that Catherine Cornelius had with Patsy Thomason?
A No.
Q Did the President ever tell you about conversations he had with
Catherine Cornelius about problems she was having as a result of the
Travel Office matter?
A No. I believe I was aware that Catherine was, had lost weight and,
you know, but I don't relate it to any problems with any person other
than that the sort of scrutiny and everything had upset her and that
she had lost a lot of weight and was maybe sick for awhile. It wasn't
related to any single person or particular matter; it was just having
to go through this public scrutiny.
Q Were you aware of her attorney writing a letter to the Chief of
Staff's office complaining about harassment of her by Patsy Thomasson?
A No.
Q And asking for a raise?
A No.
Q Do you know what the Hope Foundation is?
A I think so. I know what a Hope Foundation is. I don't know if there
is more than one. There is a foundation in Hope, Arkansas, to restore
the President's birthplace. I don't know if that is what you have
reference to or not.
Q Were you aware of efforts to transfer money from the presidential
inaugural funds to the Hope Foundation in early 1993?
A No. We had discussions at one point -- we have never transferred any
money from the inaugural. We had general discussions at one time about
what could be done with excess inaugural funds, but I think we
ultimately decided to do nothing with them, and to leave them in the
foundation.
Q Do you know who was involved with that?
A The lawyers for the foundation, Lyn Utrecht, myself. I don't know
who -- there may be others.
Q I believe there was -- I am sorry, I don't have it. There was a memo
regarding moving $2 million of PIC funds into the Hope Foundation. Are
you at all familiar with any of those efforts, any efforts to do that?
A That would -- I think that would be a different Hope Foundation. I
don't know what that is. Oh -- I am trying to remember whether we
created a foundation around these people that we met along the
campaign, something of hope, Faces of Hope. Throughout the campaign
and during the inaugural we had various "faces of hope." I don't know
whether they created a foundation called the Hope Foundation that had
something to do with that or not.
Q This is the memo -- it is a memo to Hillary Rodham Clinton from Rahm
Emanuel regarding the Presidential Inaugural Committee, February 17,
1993. "This is to inform you the status of the Presidential Inaugural
Committee's accounting books as it pertains to the Hope Foundation. As
I mentioned to you in the hall, we can probably move $2 million to the
Hope Foundation next week."
The Witness. No. Again, I doubt that is the birthplace, Hope
birthplace foundation. My guess is that could be the Faces of Hope.
Ms. Comstock. I will mark that 14. It is CGE 26242 through -244. It is
just 26243; it is just a one-page memo cc'd to Susan Thomases and
Harry Thomason.
[Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. 14
was marked for identification.]
BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Q Any Hope Foundation that you know of, did Susan and Harry Thomason
have involvement in it?
A Harry was one of the cochairs of the inaugural. I don't know whether
Susan was involved -- if there was a foundation that was established
around the Faces of Hope, I don't know whether Susan was involved in
the formation of that foundation or not.
Q Are you familiar with any efforts to use PIC funds, extra PIC funds,
to help fund White House operations or pay White House staff?
A We looked at all the options that the law allowed on how you could
use excess PIC funds. I thought we decided in the end not to do any of
it and to simply leave it in the foundation, hopefully to be used for
the second inaugural.
Q Do you know who made that decision?
A It was sort of a collective decision that we made after looking at
various options and what we could do and how we could use the money. I
think we decided to hold onto the money.
Q Do you know who was involved in this decision?
A I thought it was lawyers at Hogan & Hartson who, I believe, were the
lawyers for PIC.
Q Were you aware of Mr. Berman being involved in this doing memos, or
--
A Could be.
Q Do you know if Harry Thomason was involved in --
A Harry might have involved because he was one of the cochairs of PIC,
but I don't remember being at a meeting with Harry. Mike may have
been, Hogan & Hartson lawyers probably were, Lyn Utrecht I believe
was, I was.
Q Would David Watkins be involved in that?
A I don't remember.
Q Or Mr. Foster?
A I don't recall either one of those two. Vince could have been.
Q Did you know about something called the White House Project?
A I don't think so.
Q Whether or not it was relating to the image project of Mr. Thomason
and Mr. Foster's notebook that we had earlier referred to. It is not
an exhibit, but it is Mr. Foster's handwritten notes. The first entry
on his calendar is a May 11th meeting with Berman, Thomason, Watkins
in David's office to discuss possible uses of PIC money to support
White House goals and/or operations, including correspondence, respond
to backlog in advance.
Were you familiar with what was going on in May 1993 in terms of using
the PIC money?
A Again, I don't remember when these discussions were. I thought it
was around the same period. I think one of the things we looked at
was, because we had agreed to a 25 percent cutback and because a lot
of functions -- we had more mail than any others -- I think we
probably did look at whether or not those funds could be used to
support some of those services. I think ultimately we probably decided
that that probably is not legal. I don't think you can augment your
appropriations with outside money so I am not sure where that would
have gone.
Q Do you know what was being looked at in terms of advance, using the
money for advance and travel?
A No. I mean, again, if we had limited resources -- which we do; we
are always trying to figure out ways to -- if there are other ways to
cover some of those. And I think we ultimately decided that because of
a requirement you can't augment your appropriations, that we cannot do
that.
Q I wanted to finish up briefly discussing the FBI files matter.
When did you first learn that Mr. Dale's file had been -- background
file had been sought by the White House after he had left the White
House?
A When you all released it.
Q Have you had any discussions in Counsel's Office about the FBI files
matter?
A Probably.
Q When this first became public, did anyone explain to you what had
happened, why this had occurred?
A I never heard an explanation other than the one that the White House
has said, which is that the one I guess that --
Q Bureaucratic snafu?
A That is the President's term. But that it was an old list, an old
Secret Service list that they were using.
Q Are you aware of anyone at the White House contacting the Secret
Service to make any complaints since this happened in June,
complaining about problems with the Secret Service?
A I don't know of any contacts with the Secret Service, no.
Q Are you aware of Counsel's Office being in touch with Mr.
Livingstone's attorney?
A No.
Q Are you aware of the Counsel's Office receiving information about
what happened, from Mr. Livingstone's attorney?
A Well, Mr. Livingstone's attorney, I guess, made sort of the first
public statement on behalf of Mr. Livingstone. But beyond that, no.
Q Do you know if he had provided documents and information to the
Counsel's Office regarding --
A No.
Q -- the files and how this occurred?
A No.
Q Do you know when this first became public? Do you know when you
first learned that Mr. Dale's file wasn't the only file involved, that
there were hundreds of others that had been inappropriately sought?
A I am trying to remember -- did we release that after you all
released the Dale memo? It was never that it was publicly out there. I
don't remember when we got to the A through G on the list and --
Q I believe the White House or Mr. Turk had released that on the
Friday following.
A That would have been the first time I heard about it.
Q Did anybody at the White House explain to you what had happened with
that?
A Again, the same explanation that was given to the public.
Q Have you been involved in any meetings about this at the White
House?
A Other than our normal daily -- three times a week now -- staff
meetings with the entire Counsel's Office, where we discuss what is
going on generally with various matters, no.
Q Were you involved in any meetings where it was discussed that Craig
Livingstone should be fired?
A No.
Q Did the President ever say anything to you about whether Mr.
Livingstone should stay or go?
A No.
Q Do you have any knowledge of why Mr. Livingstone was not fired?
A As opposed to being put on administrative leave?
Q Yes. This matter became public on June 5th. Mr. Livingstone asked to
be put on administrative leave on June 17th. So do you know why anyone
at the White House didn't ask him or put him on administrative leave,
why he put himself on administrative leave?
A I guess the answer is, no, other than I think we try to operate on a
presumption of innocence. I don't know that, until someone looked into
it, anybody had any basis for knowing what had happened or why it had
happened on whether anybody should be disciplined in any fashion for
it.
Q Are you aware of the White House sort of professing incompetence?
A Bureaucratic "snafu" is the word the President used. I don't think
we have ever claimed incompetence.
Q Were you aware of any concerns expressed by anyone at the White
House about Craig Livingstone staying on at the White House, between
June 5th and prior to putting himself on administrative leave on June
17th?
A Again, I don't know if I knew what had happened. You released it on
the 5th?
Q It was made public on June 5th.
A I don't know what discussions occurred between then and the 17th
with Mr. Livingstone or about Mr. Livingstone.
Q Did you know Anthony Marceca while he was at the White House, at
all?
A No.
Q You never saw or heard of him in any way?
A No.
Q Do you have any knowledge of why he had access to the White House
throughout this year?
A This year?
Q Yes.
A Access -- other than making an appointment and getting in, seeing
someone, I don't know quite what "access to the White House" means.
Q Do you have any knowledge of him having access?
A No.
Q The first time you ever heard of Mr. Marceca was when this became
public?
A When I saw him on television, yes.
Q Since you were in the Counsel's Office -- I know there are a number
of detailees in the Counsel's Office; are you familiar with the
process of getting detailees into the Counsel's Office?
A I know, in general, the process of getting detailees into the
government, from one department to another department of the
government.
Q Could you describe that process?
A Yes. There is a provision that allows you to detail a person from
one agency to another agency. I believe the process allows it to be 6
months that the person can be detailed, and the cost will be picked up
by the "home," if you will, agency; and if you keep a detailee over 6
months, then you have to compensate the detailee.
There is a difference between detailees and assignees. Assignees are
placed in another department, but they continue to perform basically
the services that they would have performed in their initial
department; and detailees, I think, can have broader responsibilities
than an assignee.
Q To your knowledge, are detailees supposed to have their background
vetted or cleared prior to coming on as a detailee?
A I don't know the answer to that.
Q Do you know, when you seek a detailee, do you usually write to the
head of the agency? If you are getting a detailee from HHS, do you
write a letter to Donna Shalala?
A I don't know the answer to that either.
Q Do you know how many detailees the Counsel's Office currently has?
A No. Usually -- detailees count against our limits under our 25
percent staff reduction.
Q Is that the same case also for the Office of Personnel Security
within the Counsel's Office?
A Yes. That would be any office within -- well, again, now that it is
under OA. It might not be true under the Office of Administration; it
was clearly true when it was under the Counsel's Office.
Q You are talking about the changes that occurred in the last month in
moving the office under Mr. Easley?
A Yes. I am not sure whether OA is subject to the same limitations,
but within the White House complex office, the Office of the White
House, any detailee counted against our cap on number of employees.
But again, I don't know what the process is for vetting those people
before they come, whether they are vetted in their home agencies and
whether that carries over or not.
Q So you haven't been involved in that process?
A Not in the vetting process. I have requested detailees, not in
Counsel's Office. When I was head of Personnel, we had detailees as
well.
Q Do you know who you requested them from?
A No. I don't remember whether I requested them from the head of the
agency or from the White House Personnel person at the agency. There
is usually a White House liaison at most agencies. You might go to
them and say, we need a detailee. Is there anybody available they are
willing to detail?
Q Again, regarding Mr. Livingstone, he first put himself on
administrative leave, then resigned. To your knowledge, were there
efforts made to move him out of the White House at that time?
A I know of no efforts between the time he was put on administrative
-- or went on administrative leave and his resignation.
Q Do you know of any reason there wouldn't be efforts made --
A Again, I think presumption of innocence was, until somebody
determined that he had done something to subject him to being
reassigned or terminated, that it would be inappropriate to take those
actions prematurely.
Q You have been in the Counsel's Office since August of 1994?
A July or August, yes.
Q Everybody was pleased with Mr. Livingstone's performance during the
time you were in the Counsel's Office?
A I don't know if I ever heard any comment about his performance, so I
don't know if they were pleased or displeased. I don't think anybody
ever commented about his performance to me.
Q Did you have any interaction with him in the Counsel's Office?
A No.
Q You do not handle any aspects of the background files as Deputy
Counsel?
A No.
Q Were you aware that people in his office didn't have clearances or
background checks, there were people working in that office that
didn't have clearances?
A No.
Q Were you aware of Mr. Livingstone seeking raises?
A Yes.
Q During the course of his time there?
A Yes.
Q When did you learn about that?
A He came to me one time and wanted my assistance in helping him to
get a raise.
Q Do you recall when that was?
A No. I think maybe a year ago, maybe; I don't remember.
Q Do you recall what you discussed with him?
A Yes. I told him that things were tight everywhere and I didn't know
whether there was any more money available. I think some people had
just gotten raises, frankly, and he hadn't.
He suggested -- he told me that he thought he had been promised more
money, and he'd worked for less.
I said the budget and everything, that everybody -- that things were
tight.
RPTS MCCALLEY
DCMN GALLACHER
[1:10 p.m.]
Q Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Nussbaum promising him a raise of
any amount?
A I think he -- I don't have any knowledge that Mr. Nussbaum did. He
asserted, Mr. Livingstone asserted that he had been promised, I don't
know if he actually said by Bernie or not, when he first came on there
that he would be given more money.
Q Do you know what he said about that particular promise?
A I think that was it. He had been a good soldier and hadn't pushed;
he thought he was entitled to more money.
Q Did you ever discuss with Judge Mikva about giving Mr. Livingstone
--
A No.
Q -- a raise or discuss this with anybody else?
A No.
Q Do you know why Mr. Livingstone came to you about a raise?
A I got a sense he was trying to lobby anybody and everybody for it.
Q Do you know of other individuals who he lobbied about his raise?
A I think he talked -- I think he told me he had talked to, maybe to
Judge Mikva. I don't know whether he had talked -- you know, I think I
read since then that he maybe talked to George about it, but I didn't
know that at the time. I knew he had made -- within the counsel's
office, he had basically made the case or made his case to Judge Mikva
and to maybe the other deputy.
Q Were you aware of the kind of hours that he kept?
A No.
Q Do you know whether he kept long hours?
A No.
Q In your travels with the President, were you aware of Craig doing
advance in the first year or so?
A I don't know if I was aware or not. I remember when we went to, I
think Baltimore to opening day, he was doing the advance, but I didn't
consider that to be hardship duty.
Q Were you aware of that being part of his duties as chief of the
Office of Personnel Security?
A No. People know, like baseball or people who would like, you know,
basketball would oftentimes if they knew the President was going to do
a trip to, you know, to Baltimore for opening day would ask to do, can
I do advance on that and if they needed someone to do it and if he was
a competent advance person, they would say sure.
Q Did you go on the President's recent trip to Russia?
A Yes.
Q Were you aware of Craig Livingstone assisting on that trip?
A No.
Q Do you know why he was involved in advance on that trip?
A Well, that was -- we went around the world. Again, at some point you
run out of experienced advance people. I don't know whether Paige
Reefe or someone needed additional advance people and thought Craig,
you know, was available that could do it or not. But that trip started
in Korea, went to Japan, ended up in Russia, and we did at least two
stops in Russia. So it was a fairly extensive trip and would involve a
large number of advance people.
Q I believe that's all I have for today.
[Whereupon, at 1:15 p.m., the deposition was concluded.]
CONTENTS
EXHIBIT NO: PAGE
Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. 1
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Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. 2
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Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. 3
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Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. 4
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Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. 5
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Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. 6
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Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. 7
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Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. 8
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Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. 9
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Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. 10
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Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. 11
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Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. 12
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Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. 13
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Lindsey Deposition Exhibit No. 14
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